Commuting in a short dress - Recommended!

[Angelfishsolo]

No it doesn't surprise me AFS - you appear to through your posting styles have very traditional views of masculinity and femininity. From what I know of domestic violence, you'll find many people who have intervened who have experienced the above, in fact I was talking to a friend about it the other day. You cannot know where someone is going to go with their anger.

I question whether things will not change- why not? societal attitudes to genders will take time to address but this biological deteministic - it's hard wired bollocks, is widely unproven. It's because people don't question it and because people allow it to continue and allow it to be continually reinforced.

Let me put it to you - there was a break from my posting as I headed up the road - wore my tracksuit bottoms and my waterproof jacket - still wolf whistle etc and from what I posted earlier, I wore jeans and a waterproof.

I like some very girly clothes but I don't need to be dressed in a certain way for there to be undesirable comments etc

Address the issue of commenting and the behaviour behind it.

I wish there was a quick solution to the problem you face. I don't believe there is. I in no way condone harassment of any kind towards Ladies. However, I have witnessed the way packs of young girls behave on nights out and TBH they put males to shame. They re-enforce the "slut" stereotype in a shameful way as much as a group of lads trying to "cop a feel" re-enforces the lechery of all males.

 

[ttcycle]

I based my comment not just on reading this thread. When the Dutch lady was allegedly arrested for looking sexy a thread was started about it. TTCycle pretty much reacted in the same way on that thread as well.

maybe have a think about what I'm trying to say for a change rather than labelling me as unbalanced?

 

[Becs]

Isn't it much nicer to get a drink for 'getting to know' someone and their strength of personality/conversation rather than just by flashing cleavage etc etc? I speak for myself entirely but that's more satisfactory for me?

But when they find out I am clever they lose interest .



BTW a lot of what I saw is meant to be taken tongue in cheek! Including the comment I made about wearing a low cut top to get drinks (I actually wear them because Gok Wan and heat magazine tell me they are best for my body shape ). . . . . sorry!

Of course I prefer to be admired for my personality and conversation, which is why I doubt I'll find my future husband in a bar!

 

[ttcycle]

I wish there was a quick solution to the problem you face. I don't believe there is. I in no way condone harassment of any kind towards Ladies. However, I have witnessed the way packs of young girls behave on nights out and TBH they put males to shame. They re-enforce the "slut" stereotype in a shameful way as much as a group of lads trying to "cop a feel" re-enforces the lechery of all males.

To answer this is a long post but in short and this is why I challenge Bec's views.

Sexuality and being a sexual person is a positive thing. Being aware of yourself and comfortable in your own skin is a very healthy thing.

However, the way that objectifying both male and female (whether in a heterosexual/homosexual context) is rife is just not good as it can lead to losing sight of people for the wholeness of who they are. Being attracted to someone is not what you're mentioning above in your example.

However, I want to throw this into the ring. What men and women (God I hate this, too much of a focus on heterosexual views of the world, but I'll stick with it for now for the sake of not muddying the water) get in terms on messages in culture reinforce the idea of treating people this way. You get swathes of women who speak the language of 'ladetteism' though that's a slightly old term because it's a way to push forward in a male dominated world. If you can't beat them join them kind of idea. Encouraging looking at a person just as a sexual object. Their choice of course but in terms of mutual respect, a big step back it seems.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Taking a different tack for a moment, has it occurred to anyone who has never been a young woman and is dishing out advice to young women that such advice might actually be bad advice, and that it therefore might have the opposite effect of making women more vulnerable? I hope you don't mind me saying that I find it very quaint that you refer to women as Ladies (with a capital L, no less) in this situation - it implies a certain gentility which, though well intentioned, makes a certain kind of objectification inevitable even as it argues against it. Your emphasis is not on what women might want but on how Ladies should be treated. Where is the space in this picture for young women who go out as interested in a f**k as any of the men that are offering them drinks, but would like to choose whom they have it with and on what terms? There's a supposition of innocence or naivete on the part of women and a corresponding notion that there is something necessarily darkly predatory in male sexuality that women do not instinctively understand and must guard against by treating maleness with suspicion. Actually I think it's often very easy to identify suppressed hostility in men if you know what you are looking for, but it's much more difficult if you are conflating male sexual desire with the intent to harm.

A very good post indeed. I base my advice on looking after my younger Sister when she started going out (Not that I did a great job of it )

My posts were based on the ideas put forward that attention of males is in the main unwanted. Of course a Lady/Woman/Girl can go out and look to get laid by whomever she chooses, just as a man can. Everyone should be free to choose how they wish to behave.

Your point about suppressed hostility is well noted as is your point about "if you know what to look for".

I did not mean to conflate male sexual desire with intent to do harm and for that I apologise.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

maybe have a think about what I'm trying to say for a change rather than labelling me as unbalanced?

Yes you are right. Unbalanced was the wrong word. Maybe edgy might be a better choice?

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

i have been married to an 'exotic'woman for 21 years and yes she is gorgeous. but the hassle she/we have had over the years usually falls into 2 camps. either, number 69 please, how much you pay for her,etc etc usually crappy pisshead/ignorant oafs or middleclass discrimination which is very very subtle.

point is

lads,
behave around beautiful (or ugly) 'exotic' women exactly the same as 'our own' women, i.e., with respect, by all means compliment them, but don't 'dis' them when you don't get a typical english reply.

it's just not cool.

(nb. i've posted this after getting to page 10, so may be out of context)

ttcycle,

please try to understand that you are up against a millennia of dna, don't expect miracles, but chapeau for trying.

 

[ttcycle]

But when they find out I am clever they lose interest .



BTW a lot of what I saw is meant to be taken tongue in cheek! Including the comment I made about wearing a low cut top to get drinks (I actually wear them because Gok Wan and heat magazine tell me they are best for my body shape ). . . . . sorry!

Of course I prefer to be admired for my personality and conversation, which is why I doubt I'll find my future husband in a bar!

]
I do know this Becs, I used to be a stylist too

I know you well enough to be able to read that but I will still challenge the supposition cause of my wider feelings (oh **** another radical feminist here...what are we going to do wrings hands in angst) and from what can be read into them.

Sad isn't it? The reverse also of characterising attractive people as bimbos as well is sad, such a shame that people don't want to relate to each other on a human, considered level.

 

[ttcycle]

i have been married to an 'exotic'woman for 21 years and yes she is gorgeous. but the hassle she/we have had over the years usually falls into 2 camps. either, number 69 please, how much you pay for her,etc etc usually crappy pisshead/ignorant oafs or middleclass discrimination which is very very subtle.

point is

lads,
behave around beautiful (or ugly) 'exotic' women exactly the same as 'our own' women, i.e., with respect, by all means compliment them, but don't 'dis' them when you don't get a typical english reply.

it's just not cool.

(nb. i've posted this after getting to page 10, so may be out of context)

ttcycle,

please try to understand that you are up against a millennia of dna, don't expect miracles, but chapeau for trying.

Come on Brompton, I've said it before and will say it again. Nowt to do with DNA.


AFS - Edgy...What as in challenging?

 

[Angelfishsolo]

That's not necessarily but again, I'm keep pushing you on this; why do people (not just men I add)

rate each other like this?

It is nature. It is something that stems from the primal part of the brain. Be a man/woman hetro, homo or bi there will always be fear of rejection and an assumption that the more beautiful / handsome a person the harder a catch they will be. This is ere-enforced be the media. How often do we see a famous person involved with am ugly man /woman?

 

[Becs]

]
I do know this Becs, I used to be a stylist too

can we go shopping some time?

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Come on Brompton, I've said it before and will say it again. Nowt to do with DNA.


AFS - Edgy...What as in challenging?

Edgy as on edge about this particular topic. We all have at least one topic that presses out buttons. Gods know I have a few.

 

[ttcycle]

can we go shopping some time?

yes if you must

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

Come on Brompton, I've said it before and will say it again. Nowt to do with DNA.


AFS - Edgy...What as in challenging?

ok fair point, lets go with tradition then? or is stigmatization more likely?

 

[Angelfishsolo]

What does Becs (our medically trained person) think about the genetics of sexual behaviour?