Converting someone elses bike

[fossyant]

Aye, its been a while!
Just checked - last post was after Vernon passed away

Dan keeps me up to date with your adventures (wild weekends at the caravan). Hope all is good with you and the family otherwise. Take care mate.

Hope you and the family are doing well - we keep breaking people at the caravan - usually one injury each time. We're 'leaving' this year as the 20 year age of van and our 10 year tenure is up (in laws had it 10 years prior to us), and it's mad money to buy another. Will go round UK more now !

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Tell him you haven’t got a Scooby about it, and he’ll have to sort it himself.

 

[classic33]

That's a direct drive hub motor by the looks of it which has both benefits and disadvantages. However the first thing to point out is at 1000W it is illegal to use on public highways etc. Also at 1000W it will need a very high capacity battery which can provide the current required for close to 1000W. These type of motors don't provide huge torque because they are ungeared but give them full power and they will go fast perhaps over 30mph. There maybe a restriction option to limit them to 15.5mph assisted and this will also massively reduce their current demands and mean a much greater range. In this mode they would typically take a lot less power than many legal mid-drive motors, Bosch etc. However whether people set such motors to the legal limit is another matter, most suspect they don't.

There is also an issue of the throttle. The department for transport gave an exception to ebike kits with regard the throttle but the rest of the ebike kit still needs to be legal in wattage terms. The Wisper ebikes which are type approved are all using fairly low power geared hub motors so whether this ebike kit meets the required spec for a twist and go throttle is another matter.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

Direct drive hub motors can be super reliable due to simplicity but they are heavy. Despite their huge size and weight they have the least torque of any ebike motor typically unless you throw huge current at them. The most common type of ebike is a geared hub motor. They are much lighter and have more torque typically but have planetary gears inside that will wear out over time. However these planetary gears are linked to a clutch mechanism so when unpowered there is practically no drag so the bike can be ridden as normal until power is applied which makes them superior to direct drive and mid-drive motors especially for long distance riding. They are probably the ideal type of ebike motor for general riding on the road. If you want a ebike for off-road use where high torque is required mid-drive is generally considered superior.

That piece, as stated at the piece linked to, applies to bicycles already on the road in 2016.
It doesn't cover bikes/cycles bought after the new regulations came into force.

 

[TheDoctor]

Waves at @longers

 

[bonzobanana]

That piece, as stated at the piece linked to, applies to bicycles already on the road in 2016.
It doesn't cover bikes/cycles bought after the new regulations came into force.

Which piece are you referring to? Wisper bikes are selling fully legal twist and go ebikes today and the exemption is still standing for those who do their own conversion that meets the same standard. You can buy a brand new bicycle and fit a throttle based ebike kit and use it as long as it meets the type approval specification like the Wisper bikes. Of course this is part of UK legislation and such ebikes wouldn't be legal in mainland Europe. I think you are confusing the 2016 ebike deadline with the type approval process and the exemption to that for kit conversions. Ultimately you can simplify the ruling and say throttles are legal for ebike kits as long as they are 250W. However then it gets confusing as many store bought mid-drive ebikes are using 800W or more power when climbing hills so the 250W rating makes little sense. The legislation is appalling quite frankly which is why its completely unworkable in most regards apart from an ebike having pedals and only assisting to 15.5mph.

https://wisperbikes.com/product-category/throttle-electric-bikes/

 

[classic33]

Which piece are you referring to? Wisper bikes are selling fully legal twist and go ebikes today and the exemption is still standing for those who do their own conversion that meets the same standard. You can buy a brand new bicycle and fit a throttle based ebike kit and use it as long as it meets the type approval specification like the Wisper bikes. Of course this is part of UK legislation and such ebikes wouldn't be legal in mainland Europe. I think you are confusing the 2016 ebike deadline with the type approval process and the exemption to that for kit conversions. Ultimately you can simplify the ruling and say throttles are legal for ebike kits as long as they are 250W. However then it gets confusing as many store bought mid-drive ebikes are using 800W or more power when climbing hills so the 250W rating makes little sense. The legislation is appalling quite frankly which is why its completely unworkable in most regards apart from an ebike having pedals and only assisting to 15.5mph.

https://wisperbikes.com/product-category/throttle-electric-bikes/

See the thread "Throttle" in this section for Wisper bikes process for selling "legal twist and go" e-bikes.
They don't make it as clear cut as you seem to be making out, and they're the manufacturer of the end product.

 

[longers]

You will all be extremely pleased to know that you have managed to talk him out of going for this idea, thanks.

 

[longers]

Hope you and the family are doing well - we keep breaking people at the caravan - usually one injury each time. We're 'leaving' this year as the 20 year age of van and our 10 year tenure is up (in laws had it 10 years prior to us), and it's mad money to buy another. Will go round UK more now !

End of an era!

Take care pal.

 

[longers]

Waves at @longers

Hiya mate, long time no see. Hope you're doing ok?

Busy here, just not riding much

Have got one daughter riding well, the other has no interest in it at all. Weird.

 

[bonzobanana]

See the thread "Throttle" in this section for Wisper bikes process for selling "legal twist and go" e-bikes.
They don't make it as clear cut as you seem to be making out, and they're the manufacturer of the end product.

The ebikes they sell commercially have to go through a individual type approval process which they do themselves before selling the ebikes in a normal way which seems clear cut to me but the Department for Transport has made an exception to this for ebike kits which I provided a link to. Also as ever its perfectly legal to have a full power throttle if its only activated by a cadence sensor when you pedal. That has always been legal its only twist and go ebikes where it gets more complicated. Also if you have an ebike bought before 2016 it can legally have a twist and go throttle and if you buy a new commercial ebike it can have a twist and go throttle only up to 6km or 3.8mph before cutting off. How the Police are meant to remember all this plus all the other laws etc is another matter though. Ultimately its unworkable legislation and even if it was updated to a new standard with logical and clear cut specifications you would still have people with older ebikes who expected to be able to use them. However if you just had a simple law, 20mph maximum assistance (ideal for the UK), fitted pedals, 1000W maximum continuous power, no restrictions on throttles then pretty much everything becomes legal except for the really dangerous high speed and 1000W+ ebikes often without pedals and the police would be able to do their job more easily. At the moment lots of ebike riders get hassled because their ebikes look more powerful i.e. fat bikes and others whose ebikes are illegal get completely overlooked. It's all about looking legal rather than being legal such is the state of ebike legislation.

 

[classic33]

The ebikes they sell commercially have to go through a individual type approval process which they do themselves before selling the ebikes in a normal way which seems clear cut to me but the Department for Transport has made an exception to this for ebike kits which I provided a link to. Also as ever its perfectly legal to have a full power throttle if its only activated by a cadence sensor when you pedal. That has always been legal its only twist and go ebikes where it gets more complicated. Also if you have an ebike bought before 2016 it can legally have a twist and go throttle and if you buy a new commercial ebike it can have a twist and go throttle only up to 6km or 3.8mph before cutting off. How the Police are meant to remember all this plus all the other laws etc is another matter though. Ultimately its unworkable legislation and even if it was updated to a new standard with logical and clear cut specifications you would still have people with older ebikes who expected to be able to use them. However if you just had a simple law, 20mph maximum assistance (ideal for the UK), fitted pedals, 1000W maximum continuous power, no restrictions on throttles then pretty much everything becomes legal except for the really dangerous high speed and 1000W+ ebikes often without pedals and the police would be able to do their job more easily. At the moment lots of ebike riders get hassled because their ebikes look more powerful i.e. fat bikes and others whose ebikes are illegal get completely overlooked. It's all about looking legal rather than being legal such is the state of ebike legislation.

The Wisper e-assist bikes get tested at a DVLA approved testing station, not by Wisper themselves, that'd be illegal. The charge they pass on to you. They pass the test, they get reclassified as light mopeds. They, and the rider, have to meet the same criteria that every other moped on the roads, insurance, tax, MOT, registration plate. The rider requires the Q category on their driving licence, be insured to ride it and wear the appropriate, approved helmet.*

You realise that the old regulations were said to be just as hard to understand, and police. The very same arguments as you're using above being put forward then for change.
Say you want to go at 20mph, have you considered pedalling. As for being ideal for the UK, with the recent speed limit reduction in parts of Wales, and the increasing 20mph zones, you'd be travelling at the upper end of the speed limit.

*Information provided by Wisper Bikes, who also provided a copy of the form they filled for one such test.

 

[bonzobanana]

The Wisper e-assist bikes get tested at a DVLA approved testing station, not by Wisper themselves, that'd be illegal. The charge they pass on to you. They pass the test, they get reclassified as light mopeds. They, and the rider, have to meet the same criteria that every other moped on the roads, insurance, tax, MOT, registration plate. The rider requires the Q category on their driving licence, be insured to ride it and wear the appropriate, approved helmet.*

You realise that the old regulations were said to be just as hard to understand, and police. The very same arguments as you're using above being put forward then for change.
Say you want to go at 20mph, have you considered pedalling. As for being ideal for the UK, with the recent speed limit reduction in parts of Wales, and the increasing 20mph zones, you'd be travelling at the upper end of the speed limit.

*Information provided by Wisper Bikes, who also provided a copy of the form they filled for one such test.

I know they are tested at a DVLA testing station that is the type approval process. However Wisper do the processing of taking the ebikes to the testing centre and getting them tested which they obviously have to charge for. No these ebikes are treated exactly the same as other ebikes, there is no requirement for insurance, tax, MOT or registration plate and the type approval process is a one off process that last the lifetime of the bike you never need to do any more tests on the ebike.

I think you are confusing these Wisper bikes with the moped class that allows up to 1000W. These are limited to 250W max power.

More information here;

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/full-throttle-ebike-legal-again/

Also you can look here;

https://assets.publishing.service.g...single-vehicle-approval-inspection-manual.pdf

and search for 250W LPM which shows the exceptions like no need for registration/number plates etc which would form the basis of insurance and road tax etc.

This amendment only came in I think in 2019 to allow for disabled, elderly and other riders to continue cycling which was prevented with the harmonization with the EU certification.

However I don't think its like the EU certification which states 250W and then allows for mid-drive motors consuming 800W or more still being classed as 250W I suspect Wisper has to adhere much closer to the 250W limit hence their ebikes seem to be using fairly standard lower power hub motors. Those mid-drive ebikes would be classed as mopeds or motorbikes under this legislation so would require number plates, tax, insurance and use of a motorcycle helmet where as they seem to get a free pass under the EU certification or are at least ignored.

 

[classic33]

I know they are tested at a DVLA testing station that is the type approval process. However Wisper do the processing of taking the ebikes to the testing centre and getting them tested which they obviously have to charge for. No these ebikes are treated exactly the same as other ebikes, there is no requirement for insurance, tax, MOT or registration plate and the type approval process is a one off process that last the lifetime of the bike you never need to do any more tests on the ebike.

I think you are confusing these Wisper bikes with the moped class that allows up to 1000W. These are limited to 250W max power.

More information here;

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/full-throttle-ebike-legal-again/

Also you can look here;

https://assets.publishing.service.g...single-vehicle-approval-inspection-manual.pdf

and search for 250W LPM which shows the exceptions like no need for registration/number plates etc which would form the basis of insurance and road tax etc.

This amendment only came in I think in 2019 to allow for disabled, elderly and other riders to continue cycling which was prevented with the harmonization with the EU certification.

However I don't think its like the EU certification which states 250W and then allows for mid-drive motors consuming 800W or more still being classed as 250W I suspect Wisper has to adhere much closer to the 250W limit hence their ebikes seem to be using fairly standard lower power hub motors. Those mid-drive ebikes would be classed as mopeds or motorbikes under this legislation so would require number plates, tax, insurance and use of a motorcycle helmet where as they seem to get a free pass under the EU certification or are at least ignored.

I'm simply using what the manufacturer has said, on here and elsewhere.

 

[bonzobanana]

I'm simply using what the manufacturer has said, on here and elsewhere.

I've never ever seen a quote from Wisper saying you need tax and insurance for their twist and go ebikes and can see nothing on their site. Can you post a link?

 

[classic33]

I've never ever seen a quote from Wisper saying you need tax and insurance for their twist and go ebikes and can see nothing on their site. Can you post a link?

As I said earlier, see the thread "Throttle" on here.