Converting someone elses bike

[bonzobanana]

As I said earlier, see the thread "Throttle" on here.

I can see you have added a quote which contains mention of tax and insurance although there is no information where this is from because the link below clearly shows in the thread Wisper stating you don't need tax, insurance, mot or a motorcycle helmet which surely has to be the case when it is clearly stated in the standard no requirement for registration and number plates. On the type approval certificate it just has 000 with regard registration. You cannot link insurance, tax or a MOT with the bike because there is no number plates or registration number. Every bit of information I see in the proper documentation validates Wisper's claims and surely they have been selling these twist and go ebikes now for some years with no legal issues at all. Also just as a minor point there are no number plate holders on these ebikes that Wisper sell. I'm 100% certain you can ride twist and go type approved ebikes legally without tax, insurance, MOT or a helmet in fact there is absolutely no point to the 250W LPM type approval process if it didn't do this. Why on earth would you pay extra money for type approval just to be exactly where you were before without type approval, who would do that?

Also why would the Department for Transport make the exception for ebike kits if nothing actually happened in the type approval process anyway as below.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/

 

[classic33]

I can see you have added a quote which contains mention of tax and insurance although there is no information where this is from because the link below clearly shows in the thread Wisper stating you don't need tax, insurance, mot or a motorcycle helmet which surely has to be the case when it is clearly stated in the standard no requirement for registration and number plates. On the type approval certificate it just has 000 with regard registration. You cannot link insurance, tax or a MOT with the bike because there is no number plates or registration number. Every bit of information I see in the proper documentation validates Wisper's claims and surely they have been selling these twist and go ebikes now for some years with no legal issues at all. Also just as a minor point there are no number plate holders on these ebikes that Wisper sell. I'm 100% certain you can ride twist and go type approved ebikes legally without tax, insurance, MOT or a helmet in fact there is absolutely no point to the 250W LPM type approval process if it didn't do this. Why on earth would you pay extra money for type approval just to be exactly where you were before without type approval, who would do that?

Also why would the Department for Transport make the exception for ebike kits if nothing actually happened in the type approval process anyway as below.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/dft-pedal-cycles-converted-twist-go-exempt-type-approval/


View attachment 712869

Are you talking about e-assist, as per the current regulations or e-bikes?

As for the type approval, should it pass the MVSA, then the rules for light mopeds apply to it. That's easy enough check with the DVLA. There is no registration number given on the paperwork, filled in before the test, because as you point out there isn't one for a pedal cycle. The registration requirement, like the insurance, MOT, tax, comes after getting type approval.

As for "who would do that", Wisper are one example.

Can I ask, have you ever tried to get a pedal powered cycle through the SVA, as it was? I have, and after sending the local DVLA office nuts trying, I gave up.
There's about half a dozen testing stations in the UK that can actually handle this test.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Someone mentioned there being an exception somewhere for elderly and disabled users

Does anyone have any details of whether this is real - and what the details are?

 

[bonzobanana]

Are you talking about e-assist, as per the current regulations or e-bikes?

As for the type approval, should it pass the MVSA, then the rules for light mopeds apply to it. That's easy enough check with the DVLA. There is no registration number given on the paperwork, filled in before the test, because as you point out there isn't one for a pedal cycle. The registration requirement, like the insurance, MOT, tax, comes after getting type approval.

As for "who would do that", Wisper are one example.

Can I ask, have you ever tried to get a pedal powered cycle through the SVA, as it was? I have, and after sending the local DVLA office nuts trying, I gave up.
There's about half a dozen testing stations in the UK that can actually handle this test.

Why do you persist with this? It's clear the information I provided was from a link you provided in the 'Throttle' thread. The very link you provided goes to this information where Wisper clearly state that no insurance, MOT etc are needed for these type approved twist and go ebikes.

It seems like insanity to keep persisting with your point when every bit of evidence contradicts your viewpoint even links you have provided.

Wisper are happily selling these ebikes for years now with no legal issues and this is clearly documented in the necessary legislation. No one is buying these ebikes and getting number plates, MOTs and TAX for these that would be impossible to do.

Most ebikes in the world have throttle control across Asia, Africa, North and South America. In China and India a huge number of ebikes are sold with lead acid batteries due to cost and they are pretty much all throttle control. In India it seems brushed motors are very popular again due to price and throttle control again. It's simple and gives full control to the rider. It's safer in urban traffic and allows weaker riders i.e. disabled, elderly to set off from a standing start more easily. It's no surprise that the UK legislation has created the 250W LPM classification so more people can ride bikes with better control and safety. While I am a fan of torque sensors the cadence sensor is a terrible way to activate a motor, it can delay and extend on the motor power and some ebikes operate at full power when the cadence sensor operates which is unsafe and hard to control. A throttle is the best option you can control power fully giving yourself as little or as much as you want in a situation. I think Wisper have done a brilliant job pushing for this and implementing it on some of their ebikes. It has really helped many riders and helped them continue cycling into later life or with disabilities. I can only see this as hugely positive I don't get the resistance to it and the complete denial of the existence of this legislation and trying to pretend its something it isn't. Use of throttles should never have been legislated against.

 

[classic33]

Why do you persist with this? It's clear the information I provided was from a link you provided in the 'Throttle' thread. The very link you provided goes to this information where Wisper clearly state that no insurance, MOT etc are needed for these type approved twist and go ebikes.

It seems like insanity to keep persisting with your point when every bit of evidence contradicts your viewpoint even links you have provided.

Wisper are happily selling these ebikes for years now with no legal issues and this is clearly documented in the necessary legislation. No one is buying these ebikes and getting number plates, MOTs and TAX for these that would be impossible to do.

Most ebikes in the world have throttle control across Asia, Africa, North and South America. In China and India a huge number of ebikes are sold with lead acid batteries due to cost and they are pretty much all throttle control. In India it seems brushed motors are very popular again due to price and throttle control again. It's simple and gives full control to the rider. It's safer in urban traffic and allows weaker riders i.e. disabled, elderly to set off from a standing start more easily. It's no surprise that the UK legislation has created the 250W LPM classification so more people can ride bikes with better control and safety. While I am a fan of torque sensors the cadence sensor is a terrible way to activate a motor, it can delay and extend on the motor power and some ebikes operate at full power when the cadence sensor operates which is unsafe and hard to control. A throttle is the best option you can control power fully giving yourself as little or as much as you want in a situation. I think Wisper have done a brilliant job pushing for this and implementing it on some of their ebikes. It has really helped many riders and helped them continue cycling into later life or with disabilities. I can only see this as hugely positive I don't get the resistance to it and the complete denial of the existence of this legislation and trying to pretend its something it isn't. Use of throttles should never have been legislated against.

We, or I am, talking about the EU regulations, as they are appllied in the UK. Not Asia, Africa, North/South America or even China.

Into this you brought Wisper bikes type approval scheme. Putting their bikes through the MVSA(Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval). The outcome being as given already, by myself. Which as I've said is based on answers the same person has given here and elsewhere.


2. Application
The Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval Scheme applies to:
Mopeds
Low powered moped (L1e)
• a 2, 3 or 4 wheeled mopeds with pedals • with auxiliary propulsion not exceeding 1kW
• with a maximum design speed not exceeding 25km/h (16mph) • includes sub-category 250W LPM (see Glossary for definition) 2 wheeled vehicles (L1e)
• with a maximum design speed of 45km/h (28mph) • fitted with an internal combustion engine having a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50cc, or
• fitted with an electric motor with a maximum continuous power not exceeding 4kW
https://assets.publishing.service.g...single-vehicle-approval-inspection-manual.pdf

Note the requirements!
https://assets.publishing.service.g...annex-b-l-category-vehicle-classification.pdf

 

[Espresso vecchio]

Oh dear, classic33. What I am about to say is not intended as patronising or rude, but you are in a muddle. Please do not take my comments amiss.

Clearly you have not properly read or understood previous threads (including your own incorrect contribution to the Throttle thread on 10 Feb last year), postings on this thread, Wisper's posts and literature, or the government's published material. EU regulations which you inexplicably mention in your last post have not applied since Brexit, though the UK generally keeps similar standards for most matters till our government gets round to changing them. Our government's present stance is shown below.

Wisper bikes which have throttles and have each had individual type approval at an MSVA centre are NOT light mopeds in classes L1e-A or L1e-B as in your chart in your last post above. As the Wisper website says, they are a subgroup of the Light Moped category, but classed by the UK government as L1e, not L1e-A or L1e-B. Specifically our government's regulations describe such bikes as 'twist and go' EAPC, as you can see in the link below. These bikes are still classed as EAPCs, not mopeds as you have said above, and do not need to be taxed or insured. They can be ridden where any pedal bike can be ridden. Here is the web page https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

 

[midlife]

Just out of curiosity, what's the type approval number on the plate the whisper bike should have?

 

[bonzobanana]

We, or I am, talking about the EU regulations, as they are appllied in the UK. Not Asia, Africa, North/South America or even China.


Into this you brought Wisper bikes type approval scheme. Putting their bikes through the MVSA(Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval). The outcome being as given already, by myself. Which as I've said is based on answers the same person has given here and elsewhere.


2. Application
The Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval Scheme applies to:
Mopeds
Low powered moped (L1e)
• a 2, 3 or 4 wheeled mopeds with pedals • with auxiliary propulsion not exceeding 1kW
• with a maximum design speed not exceeding 25km/h (16mph) • includes sub-category 250W LPM (see Glossary for definition) 2 wheeled vehicles (L1e)
• with a maximum design speed of 45km/h (28mph) • fitted with an internal combustion engine having a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50cc, or
• fitted with an electric motor with a maximum continuous power not exceeding 4kW
https://assets.publishing.service.g...single-vehicle-approval-inspection-manual.pdf
View attachment 712895
Note the requirements!
https://assets.publishing.service.g...annex-b-l-category-vehicle-classification.pdf

I think this has already been covered. You can see both those classes above are well above 250W. One is up to 1000W and the other is up to 4000W neither are the sub class of 250W LPM. This isn't EU certification it is UK certification which is jointly active with the EU certification. The 250W LPM class seems to have been purely setup to allow the use of twist and go throttles to correct the issues with the EU certification. This sub class is not applicable to the EU it is UK only. The EU certification despite being a claimed 250W seems to allow motors of up to about 900W to be classed as 250W but I don't think the UK 250W LPM allows that going by the Wisper models, so they won't be anywhere near as powerful as so called 250W e-mountain bikes with mid-drive motors. I'm guessing they would have to be L1e-A class if they had a twist and go throttle fitted.

The throttle situation is such a mess now because even in the EU certification you can have a twist and go throttle fitted up to 6km/h and then it can only stay active if you keep peddling up to the maximum assistance speed. The twist and go throttles stay active even if aren't peddling. The EU way is messy as the throttle may or may not work at certain times and if you have hub gears you may need to stop pedalling to change gear and you don't want the motor cutting off. If you are elderly or disabled there may be times when you can't pedal or you may need to concentrate on urban roads with lots of traffic and congestion and want to be fully focused on your own safety especially if you are recovering from a stroke or other mental issues where you may not be quite as alert as others.

I guess my point is going with the 250W LPM sub class has the penalty of much lower wattage compared to 250W EU ebikes which can be up to 900W pretty much and still certified without need of insurance or tax etc. So its not a free lunch you are gaining one thing and losing another.

Looking around I found this 250W (1000W) ebike here;


https://www.cyrusher.co.uk/products/kommoda-ebike

They remove the throttle which presumably only operates as a full twist and go throttle (possibly full power/speed) with their controller but supply it with the ebike. The ebike comes restricted to 15.5mph and stickered up to 250W just like many mid-drive e-mountain bikes. Although they claim a 1000W motor that is probably the peak continuous power it can take its likely the controller provides far less than this in order to keep the hub motor cooler and last longer its unlikely to match the wattage of many e-mountain bikes in reality. I watched a video of a similar ebike and the highest peak figure I saw on the display was 600W or just over. It was a 15 or 16A controller. The Cyrusher ebikes are shipped from both the UK and sites in Europe so have to comply with EU CE certification. This isn't a personal import like something from Aliexpress where you can buy uncertified products which are sent from China.

I would make the point that the elderly and disabled need both a twist and go throttle and the high wattage that EU certification seems to allow without penalty.

 

[youngoldbloke]

I would make the point that the elderly and disabled need both a twist and go throttle and the high wattage that EU certification seems to allow without penalty.

Is that all elderly or specifically elderly and disabled? I can't help but find that statement somewhat patronising.

 

[bonzobanana]

Is that all elderly or specifically elderly and disabled? I can't help but find that statement somewhat patronising.

It's just a general term for groups of people where a twist and go throttle could really benefit them. It certainly isn't meant to imply that everyone who is elderly or disabled needs it or those outside these groups don't also benefit from a twist and go throttle. It's just about giving people the right options for them, not restricting options which is unfair, unsafe and un-healthy.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

It would be nice to think that if I get too ill to use a proper bike - but still have enough balance etc to ride a bike - then I can have a nearly proper bike but witha throttle to help out a bit if I need it

That is really why I use a legal ebike now - so I can have some help if I have a problem
such as my asthma deciding to be bad today - or it raining

 

[bonzobanana]

It would be nice to think that if I get too ill to use a proper bike - but still have enough balance etc to ride a bike - then I can have a nearly proper bike but witha throttle to help out a bit if I need it

That is really why I use a legal ebike now - so I can have some help if I have a problem
such as my asthma deciding to be bad today - or it raining

That's exactly why the throttle is ideal. Lots of people have varying energy levels or varying levels of concentration or they simply need to concentrate more in certain more complex road situations like junctions and roundabouts. Maybe they don't have the power to initially get the bike to move from a standstill so need a throttle that operates immediately. It's all about making the legislation inclusive and safe so more people benefit from cycling.

 

[youngoldbloke]

That's exactly why the throttle is ideal. Lots of people have varying energy levels or varying levels of concentration or they simply need to concentrate more in certain more complex road situations like junctions and roundabouts. Maybe they don't have the power to initially get the bike to move from a standstill so need a throttle that operates immediately. It's all about making the legislation inclusive and safe so more people benefit from cycling.

The Cycrusher bike you link to weighs in at 72 lbs/32.72kg! No wonder assistance might be needed to get the bike to move from a standstill. I would have thought a much lighter bike would be more appropriate for those whose energy levels were dropping.

 

[bonzobanana]

The Cycrusher bike you link to weighs in at 72 lbs/32.72kg! No wonder assistance might be needed to get the bike to move from a standstill. I would have thought a much lighter bike would be more appropriate for those whose energy levels were dropping.

I think the limit is 35kg so they are up close to it. I'm not here to sell Cyrusher ebikes but fat tyres have a lot of advantages, they provide good suspension without maintenance requirements, you can ride them in snow and sand as well as other loose surfaces. They can be incredibly comfortable bikes. They can be very strong so allow for much heavier riders to get back into cycling. I think some of them have weight ratings of 180-200kg. They are a good platform for larger capacity batteries for extended range. Some are 48V 17Ah or more. Some people are more comfortable with the greater stability of such bikes. As for weight most ebikes are over 18kg, probably a huge percentage over 20kg. I was looking at the Compass 20" folding ebike that is in the Black Friday sale at £499. That is 22kg and a small folding bike.

Lets also not forget some heavy fat bikes are actually very easy to get up hills even without ebike components because they are very low geared you just don't get up the hills very fast at all. If you weigh 100kg and have a 20kg standard fat bike compared to a 10kg road bike clearly you have 120kg instead of 110kg to get up a hill but if the gearing is lower often fat bikes are below 1:1 gearing it is much easier. If a bike has a load of a 100kg but the wheel turns once for every 2 crank rotations that is effectively a 50kg load compared to a bike that has one crank rotation to one wheel rotation. I personally find it easier to get up steep hills with a heavier mountain bike than a much lighter road bike because the road bike has limited low gearing. Of course the road bike is generally faster with shorter journey times.

It's easy to get obsessed about bike weight but that is the whole point of gearing to compensate for greater weight and allow bikes to go up steep hills at a low speed. Many bike designs actually aimed at the elderly or weaker people are step thru frame designs with thick tyres and often easy up/down hub gears and actually quite heavy bikes and the hub gears are less efficient than derailleurs typically. If you go by bike weight alone these would be terrible bikes for such riders.

 

[youngoldbloke]

I have shoulder problems as well as vascular disease, which results in considerable loss of leg power. I can no longer lift the weights I was able to even in my 60s. Much of my cycling activities involves carrying my bike by car to a meeting point. I find lifting even a 16 kg bike into the car difficult and painful. There is no way I could cope with a 22kg folding bike. I'm obviously one of the ' elderly or weaker people' you refer to. I'm not obsessed with weight, it is just a very practical consideration for me - the lighter the better. My lightest ebike is just under 13 kg, ready for the road. I am 60 kg. I also find the lighter bike much more lively and enjoyable to ride. I am also a carer, my wife uses a manual wheelchair and I provide the propulsion - I'm the pusher. The same weight considerations apply, the need to be able to get the chair into the back of our estate car without the inconvenience of using ramps, the ease of pushing up a gradient, over thresholds, kerbs etc. - again, the lighter the better. Of course other considerations apply here too, ride comfort, fit and so on. Fortunately we were able to buy one of the lightest available. She has not bought an electric wheelchair yet partly because of the everyday restrictions these impose, mostly due to weight.
It may be heretical to say, but once ebikes become so high powered and heavy, with such wide tyres, why not simply dispense with the pedals?