Coronavirus outbreak

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PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
Interesting snippet I caught on the Today Program 25/03

Prof somebody or other, had looked at Covid death rates across age groups and was surprised to fine a pretty close correlation with natural death rates. Essentially, his data suggests that 2 weeks of Covid-19 infection carries the same probability of dying as a year of life at whatever age.

The Imperial College analysis suggested that is the infection ran through the uk population unchecked there would be circa 500,000 deaths. There are roughly 600,000 uk deaths annually.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Lots of people seem to think that there is something unique about Italy which has made it worse there.

There almost certainly isn't; the pandemic has progressed at the same rate everywhere, give or take, unless stringent social distancing, and/or test and trace measures are put in place.

Different bits of Italy are quite different. So a huge number of deaths were from Lombardia (there have also been a very large number of deaths in ER/MAR/PIE), which at the time was probably the worst place on earth for the coronavirus up until that point. Unfortunately that may not be the case any more and we will find that out in the next 3-4 days to a week or not.

A second very big problem with the graph in terms of making comparisons with Italy is this language around lockdown. The national lockdown in Italy doesn't have as much bearing on some bits of the graph as people think. There were two earlier "lockdowns" that aren't on the graph (I'm not saying that a national one isn't a good idea to stop the spread) and sets of measures. If you do comparisons between different countries what one calls a lockdown others call "measures". There were three lots of measures and some will argue that Italy's full lockdown was only implemented last week essentially (this is what I'd argue). Additionally on top of the lockdown Italy has "quarantined" areas well after this and rather late. A question, if Italy has quarantines after a lockdown, doesn't that rather suggest that measures aren't being stuck to or aren't quite as robust as what people say?

Additionally with Italy if you go on testing regime at a certain point, unfortunately Italy's testing regime's been quite poor. This isn't a great argument for other governments in my opinion because countries that are 2-3 weeks behind should bloody well know better. Italy is still only doing 17000-25,000 tests a day. Our government in a groundhog day moment this morning are reported to have said that yes they are actually only doing 6000 PCR tests a day (this is true), but they hope to get up to 25,000 PCR tests a day by four week's time. Yes, you read that right. Spain also seems to have totally and utterly screwed up testing in the early bits which has resulted in a brave move (or by other accounts no choice move) by the government to roll the dice and buy in antibody tests.

So in summary you can draw almost any conclusion you want about Italy glossing at the figures.
1. Little testing and a runaway cluster that went largely undetected is why Italy's in the place it is
2. Italy was very late to have an actual lockdown in terms of social distancing measures and compliance (a view not often voiced)
3. Italy didn't do many tests even as the virus progressed (c.f. other countries like singapore).

In Italy itself no1 is popular, no2 is not a popular view at all although in recent days gaining traction and no3 is not a popular view at all. Not that popularity tells you which one is the more applicable one.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
####Told to, but not ordered until Saturday
Sorry, this is dinner party hair-splitting/determination to win a point.
And in any case what was the government/any government supposed to do?
It's not hair-splitting or point-scoring - it's what happened. When faced with the choice between the legal duty to deliver profit to shareholders and the moral duty to follow an instruction from Boris with no legal force, some directors arguably chose the legal duty. We can argue about whether Tim Martin had other motivations too, but I think no-one can touch him for his dangerously foolish (I agree with Piers Morgan for once!) outbursts because of the above difference.

It's similar to the requests to other businesses to close. Requests don't allow even the few that have business continuity insurance to claim and so it basically forces some to remain open. People were pointing this out all week.

The government should have stated that licensed premises should close immediately on pain of being ordered completely closed (no takeaways/deliveries) as instances of public disorder (an existing power under the Licensing Act) and they would be instructing licensing authorities to take a very dim view come renewal - and that last bit would have increased the expected financial cost of disobedience to bring the legal duty into line with the moral one. Ideally, this order would have gone out before the weekend's produce had been delivered, not just as they got busy on Friday evening.

Arguably other premises could have been closed as "disorderly houses" as reportedly happened in Scotland, but I'm less familiar with that law, having worked in a public house but not a disorderly house ;)
Go on live telly, tell pubs to close NOW THIS INSTANT, despatch our paramilitary police to stand outside pubs, oops, we don't have such such a thing?
That's a false dilemma. There were actions possible between Boris's pathetic requests and his lockdown - besides, are the current closures of non-essential businesses being enforced that way? No, it seems such numbers of paramilitary police isn't required to close things.

Can you imagine what the effect of such an action would be in so so many ways? [...]
Pubs and licensed cafes and restaurants closed about 30h sooner, less close-proximity mixing on the sunny Saturday, less transmission, fewer hospitalisations, fewer deaths?

Have no idea what the seargant wilson thing is about.
Boris's requests with no legal effect were as pathetic as the "would you mind awfully...?" ones of posh Sgt Wilson from Dad's Army. I'm surprised anyone doesn't know that character.
 
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Location
London
Ta for reply marin.
I seem to recall lots of italians headed south after a partial lockdown leaked.
And that the leader of the democratic party (montalbano's brother) went for a well publicised)self publicised drink after lockdowns had been announced.
I Also understand that bar shutdowns came later in the progress of the virus in italy than in britain.
I stress that am not having a go at Italy, just asking for some to cut our bunch a bit of slack. Slagging off brits a full time hobby for some.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Do you think London might end up worse than Madrid?

We're not getting the details required for Madrid or London. Some commentary seems to suggest that in Madrid social distancing as an umbrella term came in later than other places. I've no idea whether that's the case or not. Some of the stuff Boris and Witty has said (with the former you wonder whether it's a slip of the tongue) suggests that London won't get as bad as Madrid.

When I've heard people on my city talking about the worries in the UK, housing density, multi-generational families and mixing is what they've voiced as worries. These are bits of information not provided about bits of London. I essentially don't know, but suspect it's probably very applicable to if you get clusters there. Madrid there's definitely an element of it going around nursing and retirement homes like wildfire. The UK (probably not London) has a very narrow window of opportunity to stop this here with antibody testing.
 

Mr Celine

Discordian
Does anybody think there is any credibility at all in the notion that the cure is worse than the disease, the argument that crashing the economy in the longer term - reduced prosperity - will do more damage to health than much more limited measures to keep the spread down rather than lockdowns? The idea that a massively contracted British economy for the next 5 years or so will mean less money for the NHS with the obvious knock-on effect.

I'm not convinced myself, but it's not an argument without some merit.
It's possible - austerity to blame for 130000 extra deaths.
 

roubaixtuesday

self serving virtue signaller
Different bits of Italy are quite different. So a huge number of deaths were from Lombardia (there have also been a very large number of deaths in ER/MAR/PIE), which at the time was probably the worst place on earth for the coronavirus up until that point. Unfortunately that may not be the case any more and we will find that out in the next 3-4 days to a week or not.

A second very big problem with the graph in terms of making comparisons with Italy is this language around lockdown. The national lockdown in Italy doesn't have as much bearing on some bits of the graph as people think. There were two earlier "lockdowns" that aren't on the graph (I'm not saying that a national one isn't a good idea to stop the spread) and sets of measures. If you do comparisons between different countries what one calls a lockdown others call "measures". There were three lots of measures and some will argue that Italy's full lockdown was only implemented last week essentially (this is what I'd argue). Additionally on top of the lockdown Italy has "quarantined" areas well after this and rather late. A question, if Italy has quarantines after a lockdown, doesn't that rather suggest that measures aren't being stuck to or aren't quite as robust as what people say?

Additionally with Italy if you go on testing regime at a certain point, unfortunately Italy's testing regime's been quite poor. This isn't a great argument for other governments in my opinion because countries that are 2-3 weeks behind should bloody well know better. Italy is still only doing 17000-25,000 tests a day. Our government in a groundhog day moment this morning are reported to have said that yes they are actually only doing 6000 PCR tests a day (this is true), but they hope to get up to 25,000 PCR tests a day by four week's time. Yes, you read that right. Spain also seems to have totally and utterly screwed up testing in the early bits which has resulted in a brave move (or by other accounts no choice move) by the government to roll the dice and buy in antibody tests.

So in summary you can draw almost any conclusion you want about Italy glossing at the figures.
1. Little testing and a runaway cluster that went largely undetected is why Italy's in the place it is
2. Italy was very late to have an actual lockdown in terms of social distancing measures and compliance (a view not often voiced)
3. Italy didn't do many tests even as the virus progressed (c.f. other countries like singapore).

In Italy itself no1 is popular, no2 is not a popular view at all although in recent days gaining traction and no3 is not a popular view at all. Not that popularity tells you which one is the more applicable one.

No quarrel with any of that. As I said, my conclusion from the data is that all countries have had similar growth rates until stringent control and/or test and trace measures were put in place. The curve from Italy is not an outlier, it's just a few days ahead of the rest. We're bang on track behind them, we'll see whether our measures are more or less effective than theirs. Up until Monday night, I suspect less effective, but that's no more than uninformed personal speculation.
 

Joey Shabadoo

My pronouns are "He", "Him" and "buggerlugs"
Just rang a concrete company, who are listed as a "key" industry so should be staying open, but their entire (Polish) workforce has refused to come in.
 

MarkF

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
Update from the hospital.

A ton of equipment turned up in the early hours of Monday. So with new masks they are now back to be worn 100% of the time by 100% of the staff in A&E. A big change from "Not needed" last Sunday! Surprisingly the PPE gear is just the same as before, gloves, apron & masks, I was expecting some sort of suit for when the confirmed cases are moved.

The waiting room is dead, has been for a week, regular bed occupancy is very low, I'd guess at 30% so there is huge capacity for those not needing ICU.

ICU is filling up though, there are 3 other wards (so far) for virus cases, wards where there are multiple single rooms. The arrivals are of all ages but the "confirmed"cases so far that I have come into contact with, have all been over 80 and with health problems, physical and/or mental, they won't be going to ICU. What has worried me though, is that these patients look to me like they have arrived direct from care homes.......

No visitors at all allowed in now, only (with restrictions) to maternity & the childrens ward.
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
A lot of confusion has been generated by having multiple "governments" inside the UK giving different and contradictory instructions.
Where? I criticise Boris for a lot of his shoot and I think it's been the wrong message at times, but he seemed to be doing pretty well in saying effectively the same message as the Welsh and Scottish Governments, as well as most of the regional mayors I've seen on TV, except for a bit of friction with his successor in London.
 

Joey Shabadoo

My pronouns are "He", "Him" and "buggerlugs"
Where? I criticise Boris for a lot of his shoot and I think it's been the wrong message at times, but he seemed to be doing pretty well in saying effectively the same message as the Welsh and Scottish Governments, as well as most of the regional mayors I've seen on TV, except for a bit of friction with his successor in London.
Scottish government said all building sites should close immediately, Westminster said they should stay open.
 
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