COVID Vaccine !

[Unkraut]

The contract is for "best efforts" to meet a "schedule".

I take your point, and I am sure this is going to rumble on for a long time yet.

Lots of words from the EU which are certainly irrelevant.

They don't, and have never, understood the concept of 'get the job done'.

My objection to this approach is that 'getting the job done' should not be at the expense of others. If the German government had followed the British nationalist approach, then I think it possible by now a similar proportion of the population might have been vaccinated as is the case in Britain. The country has the money, though the infrastructure is a bit dodgy. This would have meant though that fit and young German footballers would have been vaccinated before some of the poorer EU countries would have finished doing their over-80's or healthcare professionals.

I still think the collective approach was right, but the way it was conducted is deserving of severe criticism. The British, though, having rejected the collective approach (as is their right) are not in much of a position to criticise without being thoroughly hypocritical. By British here I mean its nationalist government and right-wing tabloid press.

 

[Eric Olthwaite]

My objection to this approach is that 'getting the job done' should not be at the expense of others. If the German government had followed the British nationalist approach, then I think it possible by now a similar proportion of the population might have been vaccinated as is the case in Britain. The country has the money, though the infrastructure is a bit dodgy. This would have meant though that fit and young German footballers would have been vaccinated before some of the poorer EU countries would have finished doing their over-80's or healthcare professionals.

I still think the collective approach was right, but the way it was conducted is deserving of severe criticism. The British, though, having rejected the collective approach (as is their right) are not in much of a position to criticise without being thoroughly hypocritical. By British here I mean its nationalist government and right-wing tabloid press.

The EU is not following a collective approach. It still wants to vaccinate the young and healthy of the EU before the elderly of Brazil or Ghana or Bangladesh. It's just a different kind of 'nationalism'.

 

[Kajjal]

The EU is not following a collective approach. It still wants to vaccinate the young and healthy of the EU before the elderly of Brazil or Ghana or Bangladesh. It's just a different kind of 'nationalism'.

It is by degree, the US has been very open about its nationalistic approach, the UK has taken the exact same approach but glosses over this inconvenient fact while criticising others for even suggesting to do the same, India has for a country with great poverty been exporting Vaccines readily and the EU has also been exporting vaccines readily including to the UK which accepts then but won’t export any from it’s own production. In fairness it was naive of the EU to expect anything from the populist government the UK has currently leading to the current situation.

 

[Milkfloat]

It is by degree, the US has been very open about its nationalistic approach, the UK has taken the exact same approach but glosses over this inconvenient fact while criticising others for even suggesting to do the same, India has for a country with great poverty been exporting Vaccines readily and the EU has also been exporting vaccines readily including to the UK which accepts then but won’t export any from it’s own production. In fairness it was naive of the EU to expect anything from the populist government the UK has currently leading to the current situation.

As pointed out above - the EU does not export anything. Multinational companies who happen to have some production facilities in the EU are doing the exporting. These companies are trying to stick to the contracts they signed. Whilst vaccine nationalism is probably not the right way to go about things we have to consider the following;
1.) EU countries were not even using the vaccines they ordered, particularly in the AZ case as they had not approved them.
2.) The UK was fully committed to pumping as much vaccine into as many people as possible with very fast approval, certain EU governments were somewhat the opposite. They also have gone for a 12 week gap, which seems to be paying off.
3.) The UK put their money where they mouth is, not only investing over 5 times per capita in companies like AZ as start up costs, but also paying more per vaccine. Whilst that is somewhat distasteful, without that investment they may not even be an AZ vaccine
4.) The UK needed the vaccine more than the EU. Just look at the infection and death rates due mainly to the Kent variant.

So, now we have the majority of our vulnerable population vaccination should we back off and share more, I believe yes, but not just with the EU, but the whole world. Let's get the vaccine in the arms of the people that need it first, ones at risk due to prevalence of Covid in their areas, old people and those with a medical need.

 

[Blue Hills]

It is by degree, the US has been very open about its nationalistic approach, the UK has taken the exact same approach but glosses over this inconvenient fact while criticising others for even suggesting to do the same, India has for a country with great poverty been exporting Vaccines readily and the EU has also been exporting vaccines readily including to the UK which accepts then but won’t export any from it’s own production. In fairness it was naive of the EU to expect anything from the populist government the UK has currently leading to the current situation.

You persist in not answering the points about the ownership of these vaccines and who has contracted to receive them under what contractual terms. I'd also be careful about chucking terms like nationalistic and populist around.
I'm no fan of boris but I haven't really noticed much in the way of triumphalism over the UK's performance vis a vis europe.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

You persist in not answering the points about the ownership of these vaccines and who has contracted to receive them under what contractual terms

Well, we haven't seen all the relevant contracts.

But to expand on my point above, focussing on contracts is missing the point.

There's a third wave in Europe and tens or hundreds of thousands will die.

Meanwhile, the UK has largely vaccinated to some degree its most vulnerable.

Yet the EU is short of vaccines which will save lives, and has and will continue to show export of those live saving vaccines to the UK where they are far less acutely needed, without action.

Regardless of commercial contracts, there's absolutely no way the EU will just stand by and allow that to happen. And they have the legal means to stop it.

 

[Eric Olthwaite]

Well, we haven't seen all the relevant contracts.

But to expand on my point above, focussing on contracts is missing the point.

There's a third wave in Europe and tens or hundreds of thousands will die.

Meanwhile, the UK has largely vaccinated to some degree its most vulnerable.

Yet the EU is short of vaccines which will save lives, and has and will continue to show export of those live saving vaccines to the UK where they are far less acutely needed, without action.

Regardless of commercial contracts, there's absolutely no way the EU will just stand by and allow that to happen. And they have the legal means to stop it.

Just like the UK has the legal means to stop the export of lipids from the UK, without which the Pfizer plants in the EU will grind to a halt.

I do have sympathy with the argument that the UK should come to an accommodation with the EU given their respective positions, but the EU's crass approach to the whole issue is unlikely to facilitate that.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Just like the UK has the legal means to stop the export of lipids from the UK, without which the Pfizer plants in the EU will grind to a halt.

Absolutely. Of course, there's no benefit to the uk from that...

the EU's crass approach to the whole issue is unlikely to facilitate that.

Agree - equally just allowing the situation to continue wasn't working either.

 

[Bazzer]

Both the EU and the UK have agreed to supply third world countries. Apart from this, both the US and the UK have exported no doses of vaccines to other countries around the world. Zilch. The EU has exported 40 million doses, and I think last night they said this was now 70 million, and they showed a map of them including Canada Australia and New Zealand!

Almost a third of all doses injected in the UK were manufactured and exported from the territory of the EU. Whilst the British have been admired for getting on with the vaccination, this fact ought to reduce British boasting about it. The trade off for the faster rate in Britain has been a slower rate on the continent and other parts of the world.

ly ignore this. Agreement across all 27 had to be achieved, and for the EU it actually went fairly quickly, but we now know not quickly enough.

The BBC, at least up to a report updated 23 hours ago, says AstraZeneca confirmed the UK had not received any vaccines or components from the EU - apart from one "tiny" batch from the Leiden plant.

The same report says that half of the vaccines received by France and Germany are unused.

BTW, I don't say this to pick a fight with you. Perhaps the sources in Germany contradict the BBC.
I also accept that a mass vaccination process might be difficult to put into place, if you know stocks are limited.

 

[Ajax Bay]

On the 'contract stuff' that

From the Torygraph:
However the redacted contract, which does not reveal how much was paid, states that "AstraZeneca has committed to use its Best Reasonable Efforts... to build capacity to manufacture 300 million Doses of the Vaccine, at no profit and no loss to AstraZeneca, at the total cost currently estimated to be [redacted] Euros for distribution within the EU, . . . ."
This morning the Spectator reports that when ministers saw a similar offer in the UK contract, Alok Sharma and Matt Hancock "insisted on a legally binding promise to serve Britain first", which they later received.

@roubaixtuesday was "glad it's that simple":
Oxford/AstraZeneca will rely on European plants for initial supplies after UK supply chain holdup
https://www.irishtimes.com/business...ses-held-up-by-manufacturing-delays-1.4430676
@slowmotion shared:
I think that this article from Politico is quite good. It's a level-headed description of the EU/UK vaccine procurement saga.
https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/
[/QUOTE]
@Smokin Joe said: From the Guardian -
https://www.theguardian.com/society...ow-the-uk-got-ahead-in-the-covid-vaccine-race

 

[Unkraut]

The BBC, at least up to a report updated 23 ours ago, says AstraZeneca confirmed the UK had not received any vaccines or components from the EU - apart from one "tiny" batch from the Leiden plant.

The same report says that half of the vaccines received by France and Germany are unused.

BTW, I don't say this to pick a fight with you. Perhaps the sources in Germany contradict the BBC.

I think this is a classic case of where confusion doesn't help. It's the BionTech/Pfizer vaccine that has been exported to the UK, over 10 million doses.

The 'three month delay' on the part of the EU must have been in dealing with Pfizer, not AZ. It is that that has caused the most criticism on the continent, on the assumption that it might have been possible to vaccinate in numbers comparable to the US.

It's perfectly in order to criticise the EU - it might have done better with the AZ contract, and certainly with the Pfizer contract.

I don't know about French practice but the unused AZ vaccine in Germany originally came about due to reserving the doses needed for the second jab. That has now been changed. Doses also mounted up during the halt in injections with AZ whilst its safety was looked into - a mistaken approach imo. This is now being sorted.

I only hope that when the supply of vaccine really gets going from April the infrastructure here can cope with it. 60 million doses in the second quarter. Once the centres are at full capacity, the plan is for local doctors to vaccinate in addition, and with more discretion as they know which patients will benefit most. It will require the logistics to be in place, and this time the govt really has got to deliver.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I only hope that when the supply of vaccine really gets going from April

Good news on that front

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ites-to-boost-inoculation-drive-idUSKBN2BI1Z2

I'm not sure, but I think there are already manufactured finished doses queued up waiting this approval for release.

I think the destination for those doses (EU/UK) is particularly at issue in current negotiation.

But that's all pretty speculative.

 

[midlife]

Slightly different topic but this just came through. Seems like we have run out (are running out) of Pfizer vaccine and second jabs will be AZ..... Covid vaccinations Please note that the last second doses of the Pfizer vaccination will be given out at XXXon Friday 2 April and at XXX on Sunday 4 April. If you had the Pfizer vaccination as your first dose and do not yet have an appointment for your second dose, please contact the vaccination team using the contact details below. If you book for a second dose after those dates, you can still receive the Oxford Astra-Zeneca vaccine.​

 

[Venod]

Slightly different topic but this just came through

May I ask, came through from where ?

 

[midlife]

May I ask, came through from where ?

Came via email from my employer (the NHS)