Pale Rider
Legendary Member
That's a point I had not considered and will bear in mind if I'm ever in a similar situation.
Criminal Damage Investigation - Need your help!
- Thread starter russ.will
- Start date
- Status
Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.
That's a point I had not considered and will bear in mind if I'm ever in a similar situation.
OP
OP
russ.will
Slimboy Fat
- Location
- The Fen Edge
And that is just what I intend to do and is excellent advice.
I lived most of my life with a copper, rode motorbikes with coppers and got drunk with more than a few too. They are nothing to be afraid of and have an exceedingly difficult job to do. Make it more difficult for them and don't be surprised if they will one-up you until you're the one out of options. I do not hold truck with the notion of bent coppers, as I've never met one out of the dozens I've known and if you go into dealing with them with that attitude, you have no one but yourself to blame for where it leads. Every one I have met holds true to the notion of protecting life first and foremost and would, in my humble experience far rather be doing that, than dealing with nonsense like this.
The view I am taking is that I am attending something I can't avoid and have managed it all to be at my convenience, demonstrating an attitude of cheery cooperation along the way. I have a witness and like I say, I'd rather this just went away. If it won't, I'll make a formal complaint of dangerous driving as a minimum. I have no intention of wanting it to go down that route, although I'm also aware that will leave future cyclists open to his potentially lethal behaviour. For all I know, the police may pursue that one anyway and I'll happily help them to do so.
I've been a witness in court (for the prosecution) before and managed to stay quite calm in the face to the defending solicitor who was trying to goad me into shouting back at his shouting at me. I was only about 22 but it didn't work, because if you breath before you respond in any situation in life, you buy yourself seconds to think and you'll be less likely to cock up your response.
Russell
jefmcg
Guru
Another thing worth noting is that you can barred entry to the US for an arrest, even if there was no subsequent conviction. Avoiding arrest seems like a good plan.
(no idea if this is a crime of moral turpitude)
(no idea if this is a crime of moral turpitude)
OP
OP
russ.will
Slimboy Fat
- Location
- The Fen Edge
I've been to the US. I got called an 'Australian' repeatedly for 2 weeks. Never going back.
Russell
Russell
You're lucky. I got called an Australian while I was in Cleveland. That's Cleveland up near Middlesbrough, not Ohio.
U
User33236
Guest
Im Scottish and keep called called Dutch whilst abroad!
Back on topic.... write out and rehearse what you wish to put forward... take a deep breath before answering any questions to give you a moment to think.... and keep calm. The driver is an ass and it is he rhat should be undergoing an interview himself.
Back on topic.... write out and rehearse what you wish to put forward... take a deep breath before answering any questions to give you a moment to think.... and keep calm. The driver is an ass and it is he rhat should be undergoing an interview himself.
OP
OP
russ.will
Slimboy Fat
- Location
- The Fen Edge
Update; I attended my voluntary, but under caution interview today. Top copper and a very nice solicitor. Now this will irk some on here, but having viewed the dash cam footage, which also did some serious memory jogging. I look like a complete c**t. It also goes to show how fickle your memory is of hectic and heated events. To illustrate, I'll now edit my original post of the 'event' with the benefit of the footage. Things that are additions are in bold and the stuff that is wrong, is made small and original text is in italics:
Shortly after I threw a 'V' Sign at a small white hatchback that caused me to swerve with a close pass as I cycled alongside my companion, a grey/silver van passed me so closely as to brush my arm with his mirror and proceeded to pull in on me further, stopping us both. As I leaned through his wife's window, I threw a string of verbal abuse so eloquent at him, that even I was surprised to find that I could replace every adjective, name and punctuation with the 'F' word.
He responded by pointing out he had my actions prior to his pass and my current comments on dashcam - Factually correct. I bid him F-off and cycled off, occupying very much the center of the road, until I got bored after about 15 seconds and waved him past. At that point, I felt I'd made my point and couldn't be arsed with him.
He then passed me again. He was so close I slapped the side of his van to warn him off and this is clearly audible on the dashcam - I was leaning against the still moving van with my forearm as it was continuing to pull toward the curb, I was out of options and out of balance through surprize. Put the flat of your arm against a wall and slap it with you palm and you'll get the picture of what I did.
He stopped and I drew along side, frankly coursing with adrenaline through fright and expecting a sorry mate, only for him to declare; I was fuming, completely dumbfounded, but cycled off. I can't be arsed with this sort of nonsense.
However, he then pulled in on me physically forced me (my companion was behind at this point) into a junction a little further up the road and having basically been run off the road and with nowhere to go due to a kerb/verge in front of me, I stopped. Corralled and now turning from flight/fright to fight, I Ieaned through the still open window to be told "That's criminal damage you've done, I've got it all on my dashcam, I want you name" I gave it to him and frankly, mixed it with expletives and offered to spell it for him if he found the letters tricky. I also told him "I would break every bone in his effing body if he got out of the effing van". He called my bluff, got out of the van and was as keen as possible to get in my face saying he wanted my name, me address etc, repeating his accusation of criminal damage. By this time, I've looked at the side of the van twice and you can't even see a hand print. The van was in good condition by the way, so this didn't exactly require more than a glance
Now I'm 15st of rugby coach and every single fibre of my body wanted to push his teeth in, throw him in the van and then stamp all over his dashcam, but I didn't. Why? Because he was over 60, 7st wet through and frankly, I'd have been in trouble. Somewhere, a voice on my shoulder was saying 'you'll be in trouble if you do' and anyway, it's not my way. I haven't had a fight since school and want to keep it that way. Then another female cyclist drew alongside and said 'Just cycle away, just cycle away' and she was right, so I/we did.
Still basically the same story/string of events, with a bit of a Tarantino on the timeline and some added 'colour'. It also lasted less than a minute beginning to end, which seriously surprised me, but there are issues to be dealt with.
I definitely was foul mouthed and threatening. No doubt there, even if it was under serious provocation and a 'shock and awe' tactic that got called.
Where the alleged damage is supposed to be is the main bone of contention. He claims I kicked his van, which I did not, because I was clipped in and frankly needed my feet to stay upright. The 'damage' is alleged to be low on the side panel and he "knows it wasn't there in the morning, because he cleans it every week". It was certainly very clean, so I'll not contest that, but I know I slapped the van and I know that point was 4-5ft off the ground and I know I left no damage high up, nevermind down at still-clipped-in shoe height. This is important.
So, under legal advice (and frankly, off the record advice from the copper who IS a road cyclist) this is what will likely happen - It's not his decision after all. I can be done for a public order offence, but was advised the best result would be a caution and I accepted that. It's on camera and there's no denying it. It's embarrassing frankly.
The complainant, wants no more than recompense for repairs to his van "which he estimates to be £2-300". As he did not see me slap the van and I had volunteered that this is exactly what I done to my solicitor in the meeting prior, I have asked for evidence of the damage and have the right to ask for independent quotes for the repair. I can insist this would include a Dent Doctor, or some such minimal cost service.
Now, the smart thing to do and this is where people will get irked, is pay for the damage and accept a caution just to get it to go away, even if it's not damage I did. I will await pictures which the copper has said he will forward to me. I may even offer £250 cash, because depending on what I see, that may be far and away the cheapest option, for me. There are prosecutable offences here and it will very likely cost me a lot more, with more serious consequences if I dig my heels in and go to court. I will get found guilty on one account, will get a worse record, will get a fine and will probably get made to pay costs too. A caution is a smart move, is just less expensive and prevents needlessly dragging a friend into court as a witness, for something that will be seen as indefensible anyway.
It doesn't end there though.
Once I've accepted all of that and it's done and dusted, never to be re-examined; I can and probably will, make a complaint of dangerous driving and whatever else the officer (for it will be him again) thinks worthy of investigation, based on the evidence of the dashcam that is already in the hands of said officer, plus I do have a witness. Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey....
Shortly after I threw a 'V' Sign at a small white hatchback that caused me to swerve with a close pass as I cycled alongside my companion, a grey/silver van passed me so closely as to brush my arm with his mirror and proceeded to pull in on me further, stopping us both. As I leaned through his wife's window, I threw a string of verbal abuse so eloquent at him, that even I was surprised to find that I could replace every adjective, name and punctuation with the 'F' word.
He responded by pointing out he had my actions prior to his pass and my current comments on dashcam - Factually correct. I bid him F-off and cycled off, occupying very much the center of the road, until I got bored after about 15 seconds and waved him past. At that point, I felt I'd made my point and couldn't be arsed with him.
He then passed me again. He was so close I slapped the side of his van to warn him off and this is clearly audible on the dashcam - I was leaning against the still moving van with my forearm as it was continuing to pull toward the curb, I was out of options and out of balance through surprize. Put the flat of your arm against a wall and slap it with you palm and you'll get the picture of what I did.
He stopped and I drew along side, frankly coursing with adrenaline through fright and expecting a sorry mate, only for him to declare; I was fuming, completely dumbfounded, but cycled off. I can't be arsed with this sort of nonsense.
However, he then pulled in on me physically forced me (my companion was behind at this point) into a junction a little further up the road and having basically been run off the road and with nowhere to go due to a kerb/verge in front of me, I stopped. Corralled and now turning from flight/fright to fight, I Ieaned through the still open window to be told "That's criminal damage you've done, I've got it all on my dashcam, I want you name" I gave it to him and frankly, mixed it with expletives and offered to spell it for him if he found the letters tricky. I also told him "I would break every bone in his effing body if he got out of the effing van". He called my bluff, got out of the van and was as keen as possible to get in my face saying he wanted my name, me address etc, repeating his accusation of criminal damage. By this time, I've looked at the side of the van twice and you can't even see a hand print. The van was in good condition by the way, so this didn't exactly require more than a glance
Now I'm 15st of rugby coach and every single fibre of my body wanted to push his teeth in, throw him in the van and then stamp all over his dashcam, but I didn't. Why? Because he was over 60, 7st wet through and frankly, I'd have been in trouble. Somewhere, a voice on my shoulder was saying 'you'll be in trouble if you do' and anyway, it's not my way. I haven't had a fight since school and want to keep it that way. Then another female cyclist drew alongside and said 'Just cycle away, just cycle away' and she was right, so I/we did.
Still basically the same story/string of events, with a bit of a Tarantino on the timeline and some added 'colour'. It also lasted less than a minute beginning to end, which seriously surprised me, but there are issues to be dealt with.
I definitely was foul mouthed and threatening. No doubt there, even if it was under serious provocation and a 'shock and awe' tactic that got called.
Where the alleged damage is supposed to be is the main bone of contention. He claims I kicked his van, which I did not, because I was clipped in and frankly needed my feet to stay upright. The 'damage' is alleged to be low on the side panel and he "knows it wasn't there in the morning, because he cleans it every week". It was certainly very clean, so I'll not contest that, but I know I slapped the van and I know that point was 4-5ft off the ground and I know I left no damage high up, nevermind down at still-clipped-in shoe height. This is important.
So, under legal advice (and frankly, off the record advice from the copper who IS a road cyclist) this is what will likely happen - It's not his decision after all. I can be done for a public order offence, but was advised the best result would be a caution and I accepted that. It's on camera and there's no denying it. It's embarrassing frankly.
The complainant, wants no more than recompense for repairs to his van "which he estimates to be £2-300". As he did not see me slap the van and I had volunteered that this is exactly what I done to my solicitor in the meeting prior, I have asked for evidence of the damage and have the right to ask for independent quotes for the repair. I can insist this would include a Dent Doctor, or some such minimal cost service.
Now, the smart thing to do and this is where people will get irked, is pay for the damage and accept a caution just to get it to go away, even if it's not damage I did. I will await pictures which the copper has said he will forward to me. I may even offer £250 cash, because depending on what I see, that may be far and away the cheapest option, for me. There are prosecutable offences here and it will very likely cost me a lot more, with more serious consequences if I dig my heels in and go to court. I will get found guilty on one account, will get a worse record, will get a fine and will probably get made to pay costs too. A caution is a smart move, is just less expensive and prevents needlessly dragging a friend into court as a witness, for something that will be seen as indefensible anyway.
It doesn't end there though.
Once I've accepted all of that and it's done and dusted, never to be re-examined; I can and probably will, make a complaint of dangerous driving and whatever else the officer (for it will be him again) thinks worthy of investigation, based on the evidence of the dashcam that is already in the hands of said officer, plus I do have a witness. Slowly, slowly, catchy monkey....
Last edited:
2Loose
Guru
- Location
- Loughborough, Leicestershire.
Oh FFS, Russ, sorry to read about this. Hope you are well in general and most of all, hope the KTM is still shiny,
Ian.
Ian.
OP
OP
russ.will
Slimboy Fat
- Location
- The Fen Edge
Hello Ian. Long time no speak!
All good otherwise and this isn't exactly praying on my mind. I did the 70 mile Tour de Norfolk weekend before last and managed not get upset with anybody! I did it with the same girl from work as the TdB, so fortunately she wasn't put off by it all either.
Russ
OP
OP
russ.will
Slimboy Fat
- Location
- The Fen Edge
No problem there. I work in construction which isn't exactly full of angels, albeit I'm head office rather than on site. Everybody there knows what happened and as the friend I was with was from there too and told them what she saw, they're all bemused why I didn't....
... do exactly that. I did say I wasn't thinking, or it should be clear that I wasn't! Thing is; what's done is done and now it's a case of managing the least costly outcome for me, with a dose of making him think twice in future.
Russell
RoubaixCube
~Tribanese~
- Location
- London, UK
One could say you pretty much turned into the 'Ronnie Pickering' of road cyclists.
Good luck with it mate & you're right of course. Just take the least painful way out & chalk it up to experience.
Willam
Über Member
you have seen the vid but to me, swearing/slapping a car that is driving dangerously is understandable.
Think I would get better advice, as being aggressive in such a situation, to me is totally acceptable, add in the fact you say the damage is not down to you, not sure I would be accepting a caution. Seems strange you are willing to accept one, yet feel there is a case against the driver.
It will be the police that brings a case against the driver, if they have the proof, why are they waiting? Will they go ahead with it? or forget about it once you take the caution? I really can't see it, chances are he too will be offered a caution.
Get legal advice, a caution is for life! (I think)
Think I would get better advice, as being aggressive in such a situation, to me is totally acceptable, add in the fact you say the damage is not down to you, not sure I would be accepting a caution. Seems strange you are willing to accept one, yet feel there is a case against the driver.
It will be the police that brings a case against the driver, if they have the proof, why are they waiting? Will they go ahead with it? or forget about it once you take the caution? I really can't see it, chances are he too will be offered a caution.
Get legal advice, a caution is for life! (I think)
Profpointy
Legendary Member
I believe "accepting a caution" is quite a big deal with consequences not too far from a criminal record. I'd not do this lightly particularly for so say "damage" you didn't and couldn't possible have done.
- Status
