Cycling Workouts: Discussion/Encouragement/Sharing/Banter

[bobinski]

I rode one of the weekend robo pacer Alp d zwift rides yesterday. In retrospect I should have ridden the 3.2 pace. But I rode D intending to do a z2 while watching the Giro mountain time trial. I got bored and upped the pace a bit and then pushed on solo. I hr 6 so 7 min slower than best time 5y (!) ago. I would not have beaten it but I could have got a lot closer so I am pretty pleased with that and ICU giving me a little ftp boost.

 

[Legs]

Did LaGuardia Sprint Race (A) on Zwift tonight. My Mum and Dad are staying with us for the weekend so they came out to the shed to cheer me on for the 6-minute duration! I ‘went’ with 600m to go and amazingly won.

Because it was a long sprint I didn’t set anywhere near a 15s best, and because the race is always ridden very cagily I’ve never achieved a really high 5-minute power there… I think I’ve got it within me to do 5 minutes at 400W, but it hasn’t happened yet!

 

[UphillSlowly]

I'm after some advice and hope this is the right thread?
Training for an endurance event. Last did FTP at end of March (Ramp test) but was coming off injury/illness so was much the same as 8 weeks previously (Around 240 W).
Graph below compares power (X-axis) to HR for winter training block (blue) with current training block (red). At higher power values (not shown) the graphs get wonky as secondhand Stages powermeter went bit crazy when wet and I've not the corrected values (life's too short).

I have been trying to do a lot of Zone 2 work. Which is challenging in the hilly area I cycle in. For me zone 2 is 136-182 W (according to ICU, Wahoo etc). But at this power range I am not pushing my HR up. Zone 3 and 4 are much the same (and expect FTP not that much different). Guess the training is working, but to maximise last 4 weeks of training should I:
1. Redo FTP? - though not convinced I will do any better
2. Alter Power Zones to match up with HR zones?
3. Both?

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Norry1]

I'm after some advice and hope this is the right thread?
Training for an endurance event. Last did FTP at end of March (Ramp test) but was coming off injury/illness so was much the same as 8 weeks previously (Around 240 W).
Graph below compares power (X-axis) to HR for winter training block (blue) with current training block (red). At higher power values (not shown) the graphs get wonky as secondhand Stages powermeter went bit crazy when wet and I've not the corrected values (life's too short).

I have been trying to do a lot of Zone 2 work. Which is challenging in the hilly area I cycle in. For me zone 2 is 136-182 W (according to ICU, Wahoo etc). But at this power range I am not pushing my HR up. Zone 3 and 4 are much the same (and expect FTP not that much different). Guess the training is working, but to maximise last 4 weeks of training should I:
1. Redo FTP? - though not convinced I will do any better
2. Alter Power Zones to match up with HR zones?
3. Both?

Thanks for the feedback.

View attachment 691960

Looks like the training is working as you have lower HR for a given power.

Lots of Z2 is ideal to build your base - but I'd suggest now throwing in more intensity i.e. Threshold and VO2 work (maybe twice a week) on top of Z2.

When is your event and what is it?

 

[UphillSlowly]

Looks like the training is working as you have lower HR for a given power.

Lots of Z2 is ideal to build your base - but I'd suggest now throwing in more intensity i.e. Threshold and VO2 work (maybe twice a week) on top of Z2.

When is your event and what is it?

Thanks, I'm tending to do threshold intervals - sweet spot, FTP and over unders, as well as hill repeats. Training for Maratona dles Dolomites in July

 

[UphillSlowly]

Looks like the training is working as you have lower HR for a given power.

Lots of Z2 is ideal to build your base - but I'd suggest now throwing in more intensity i.e. Threshold and VO2 work (maybe twice a week) on top of Z2.

When is your event and what is it?

Example of hill repeats locally

 

[UphillSlowly]

Repeated max ramp test @Norry1 and got exactly same result. So appears I have altered zones 1 and 2 without changing FTP! Perhaps my intervals not been hard enough but been prioritising endurance and descending, which used to be my weak areas. Luckily have large cassette so first 100k can be done in zones 2+3 I reckon

 

[HLaB]

I'm after some advice and hope this is the right thread?
Training for an endurance event. Last did FTP at end of March (Ramp test) but was coming off injury/illness so was much the same as 8 weeks previously (Around 240 W).
Graph below compares power (X-axis) to HR for winter training block (blue) with current training block (red). At higher power values (not shown) the graphs get wonky as secondhand Stages powermeter went bit crazy when wet and I've not the corrected values (life's too short).

I have been trying to do a lot of Zone 2 work. Which is challenging in the hilly area I cycle in. For me zone 2 is 136-182 W (according to ICU, Wahoo etc). But at this power range I am not pushing my HR up. Zone 3 and 4 are much the same (and expect FTP not that much different). Guess the training is working, but to maximise last 4 weeks of training should I:
1. Redo FTP? - though not convinced I will do any better
2. Alter Power Zones to match up with HR zones?
3. Both?

Thanks for the feedback.

View attachment 691960

I wouldn't worry about pushing your HR up in Z1 or Z2, you probably want to actually keep it low. I think the danger of trying to push it up would wear you out and lead you to an overtraining spiral making it harder still to raise HR. I tend to just use HR on %Max and not look at it for zones. I have power for my HIIT stuff and HR is just something I look at later.

 

[UphillSlowly]

Th

I wouldn't worry about pushing your HR up in Z1 or Z2, you probably want to actually keep it low. I think the danger of trying to push it up would wear you out and lead you to an overtraining spiral making it harder still to raise HR. I tend to just use HR on %Max and not look at it for zones. I have power for my HIIT stuff and HR is just something I look at later.

Thanks. I guess what I was trying to say was that the model I was using for Z2 (55-75% FTP, J Friel) resulted in Zone 2 feeling "too easy". So let me to wonder whether I should be training to Zone 2 HR instead on endurance rides.

The odd thing is that my FTP has not improved, as far as I am aware. But I'm rubbish at max ramp tests, shudder at the thought of a 20 min test, and usually struggle to complete wattbike intervals.

So for my ride tomorrow I have recalculated my power zones using a different model, so they better reflect the relationship between power and HR over the last few months, for zones 1-3.

 

[HLaB]

Th


Thanks. I guess what I was trying to say was that the model I was using for Z2 (55-75% FTP, J Friel) resulted in Zone 2 feeling "too easy". So let me to wonder whether I should be training to Zone 2 HR instead on endurance rides.

The odd thing is that my FTP has not improved, as far as I am aware. But I'm rubbish at max ramp tests, shudder at the thought of a 20 min test, and usually struggle to complete wattbike intervals.

So for my ride tomorrow I have recalculated my power zones using a different model, so they better reflect the relationship between power and HR over the last few months, for zones 1-3.

FTP is just one metric and many folk reach their natural plateau there without pro hours, etc to go beyond, so that's perfectly normal, not odd at all. What is more easy (not actually easy, just relatively) with training as the FTP stays similar the time you can hold at it (TtE, Time to Exhaustion) or even frequency to punch above and recover (w') increase. If you can somehow raise your FTP those other metrics become harder and harder to achieve (a constantly raising bar). The season I hit my 25pb I chose to fix my FTP, I suck at ramp tests; whilst really good they are only good for 75% of people I think I'm an outlier. I do significantly better at 20min tests but they take more out of you mid season. I'm using Trainer Road's (TR's) Artificial Intelligence to detect my FTP now and its been relatively stable and mechanicals aside I think Ive done OK for me.

I forget who's zone system is in my garmin as I just follow the TR work outs to whatever zones they have set up. Just had a look this is what they use.

My Garmin ones are ever so slightly different

 

[UphillSlowly]

FTP is just one metric and many folk reach their natural plateau there without pro hours, etc to go beyond, so that's perfectly normal, not odd at all. What is more easy (not actually easy, just relatively) with training as the FTP stays similar the time you can hold at it (TtE, Time to Exhaustion) or even frequency to punch above and recover (w') increase. If you can somehow raise your FTP those other metrics become harder and harder to achieve (a constantly raising bar). The season I hit my 25pb I chose to fix my FTP, I suck at ramp tests; whilst really good they are only good for 75% of people I think I'm an outlier. I do significantly better at 20min tests but they take more out of you mid season. I'm using Trainer Road's (TR's) Artificial Intelligence to detect my FTP now and its been relatively stable and mechanicals aside I think Ive done OK for me.

I forget who's zone system is in my garmin as I just follow the TR work outs to whatever zones they have set up. Just had a look this is what they use.

View attachment 692114
My Garmin ones are ever so slightly different
View attachment 692115

This is really helpful, thanks. I guess at the age of 48 and having been cycling enthusiastically for 4 years, my FTP may have plateaued even though I have continued to get fitter by other measures.

My recovery time on the outdoor bike is definitely better and yesterday I definitely recovered from the Ramp Test much more quickly than previous efforts. Once I changed my rear cassette to 11-34'(sacrilege I know) to preserve my knees and facilitate hill climbing I found I could recover on steep climbs where the gradient is 10% or less. Probably due to increased core strength and ability to pedal uphill slowly. Also realising that I don't need to attack every stretch of road.

Think I need to research w' and w'bal a bit more as they/that may be a more useful metric. And I love my numbers, self-confessed geek.

Interestingly (or perhaps not) the best eFTP I ever achieved was in a virtual Hare and Hounds race on Wahoo RGT.

Finally, I think your zones are similar to what I have been using for the last few years and would.find upper limit of Zone 2 too low. For the event in 4'weeks I think it may be beneficial for me to have my HR higher for. onger periods of time.

Thanks again for your help

 

[bobinski]

2 hours Z2 outdoors yesterday and a short row followed by one of my favourite Sufferfest videos today-THIN AIR and the battle to keep The Shark at bay. For me some interesting numbers that suggest ftp at 235w is a touch low, especially the HR nujmbers 15 bpm on average lower than the last time i di the ride when NP was 12 watts higher. Fatigue? Doubt it.

Onwards and upwards!

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Once I changed my rear cassette to 11-34'(sacrilege I know)

I thought those outdated macho thoughts had died out with the Dodo?

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I'm after some advice and hope this is the right thread?
Training for an endurance event. Last did FTP at end of March (Ramp test) but was coming off injury/illness so was much the same as 8 weeks previously (Around 240 W).
Graph below compares power (X-axis) to HR for winter training block (blue) with current training block (red). At higher power values (not shown) the graphs get wonky as secondhand Stages powermeter went bit crazy when wet and I've not the corrected values (life's too short).

I have been trying to do a lot of Zone 2 work. Which is challenging in the hilly area I cycle in. For me zone 2 is 136-182 W (according to ICU, Wahoo etc). But at this power range I am not pushing my HR up. Zone 3 and 4 are much the same (and expect FTP not that much different). Guess the training is working, but to maximise last 4 weeks of training should I:
1. Redo FTP? - though not convinced I will do any better
2. Alter Power Zones to match up with HR zones?
3. Both?

Thanks for the feedback.

View attachment 691960

Just stick to majority easy, you really don’t need that much intensity. Your fresh FTP alone is not going to define what you can do over a multi hour endurance event. Fitness does equal a number from a pretty short test.

You should also remember that your FTP is a range, it will vary day to day, how hydrated you are, what you’ve eaten, be higher at the start of an endurance ride, than at the end etc etc. It’s just one metric for a relatively short duration,

As an experiment, go for a 4 hour ride, and then when you get back, immediately do a 20 min FTP test, and see if you can average 252 watts. You’ll then realise it’s not a fixed precise value, that you can tie down to the nearest watt. Some days you can push harder, some days you can’t, for the same internal effort.

I’ve said it before, but the low intensity increases your ability to deliver oxygen to your muscles, whilst the high intensity improves your muscle cells ability to utilise what’s delivered. You need a mix of both, with vast majority the former, else numerous aspects of your fitness will plateau fairly quickly.

 

[UphillSlowly]

Just stick to majority easy, you really don’t need that much intensity. Your fresh FTP alone is not going to define what you can do over a multi hour endurance event. Fitness does equal a number from a pretty short test.

You should also remember that your FTP is a range, it will vary day to day, how hydrated you are, what you’ve eaten, be higher at the start of an endurance ride, than at the end etc etc. It’s just one metric for a relatively short duration,

As an experiment, go for a 4 hour ride, and then when you get back, immediately do a 20 min FTP test, and see if you can average 252 watts. You’ll then realise it’s not a fixed precise value, that you can tie down to the nearest watt. Some days you can push harder, some days you can’t, for the same internal effort.

I’ve said it before, but the low intensity increases your ability to deliver oxygen to your muscles, whilst the high intensity improves your muscle cells ability to utilise what’s delivered. You need a mix of both, with vast majority the former, else numerous aspects of your fitness will plateau fairly quickly.

Wise words. Thanks. Have been aiming for 80% activity in Zone 1 and 2 (by power)