Cyclist and speeding laws help please.

[benborp]

yes you can be done for speeding as i once was in ramsgate going down herson road approx 37 mph according to the local plod i got off with a caution though

http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/3037/cycling/laws-and-rules-about-cycling/

With respect, you weren't prosecuted and the woman referred to in your link was issued a ticket in the United States. The police at the road side aren't necessarily up to speed with the specifics of current legislation with regard to cycles.

 

[ianjmcd]

no i was not prosecuted but while the absolute law regarding speeding does not apply to cyclists you can still be prosecuted for other archaic offences such as furious cycling which allthough is an old and outdated law still applies today

 

[ianjmcd]

A real caution or a bit of a telling off?

It was mainly a telling off but i took legal advice at the time and as i stated above legally they cannot charge you for speeding as speeding offences only apply to motor vehicles there are other things that still apply such as Furious cycling which as ive said still applies mad i know

The highway code needs re-written on many counts and also laws need to be clarified

 

[Svendo]

When I did my speed awareness course <adopts sackcloth and ashes> recently I asked this. The trainer said it'd come up before and he'd no definite answer, although various things like lack of speedometers had been mentioned. The ex-traffic cop next to me (who to be honest was a bit of a know it all. Which was good because otherwise I'd have probably been the class bore!) butted in and said definitively that cyclists can be prosecuted for everything a motorist can. Which is plainly specious nonsense! All sorts of requirements for drivers and motor vehicles don't apply to bicycles. I went away and via the LINK given above read the RTRA Section VI and discovered I was right. Ha!
What it did make me wonder if the training police are given is a bit generalised in this area, so they have the impression they do apply.
I also read the actual act and it clearly says motor vehicles. Police training apparently doesn't actually contain that much law, an overview of powers and offenses but not much detail. The training is mostly about how to go about policing.

 

[tonyhalsall]

30 mph is a relatively tough speed limit to break on a bicycle unless you are really, really trying hard, but the current mooted proposals to reduce to 20mph on some roads may see much more consistent breaking of the "speed limit" by bicycles.
Having said that the total energy delivered in a collision with a motorised vehicle travelling at any speed will always exceed by a considerable margin the energy delivered by a human powered vehicle travelling at the same speed and it ios the total energy del;ivered that causes the problem.
Aviation is a great comparison whereby regulation for flying machines of less than 450KG total flying weight are considerably less onerous than for larger heavyweight aeroplanes. A paramotor or single seat microlight would not even put a dent in the roof of Asda if it "plummeted" onto said roof, whereas a heavier aircraft "plummeting out of control" would likely cause untold carnage.

 

[slowmotion]

Svendo, do you actually have to show contrition (Soviet show trial stuff, 1950s) at speed awareness courses, or do you just have to attend and pay the fee.? Taking the points seems a good financial punt for me. This is a matter that is close to my heart right now.

 

[Svendo]

It was mainly a telling off but i took legal advice at the time and as i stated above legally they cannot charge you for speeding as speeding offences only apply to motor vehicles there are other things that still apply such as Furious cycling which as ive said still applies mad i know

The highway code needs re-written on many counts and also laws need to be clarified

I think the point here is that the offences open to prosecutors such as furious cycling aren't 'strict liability', there needs to be evidence of more thasn just excessive speed in itself. The CTC forum thread here a bit less than half way down has the act with 'furious riding or driving' in it. It doesn't define furious so that would need knowledge of case law to make a useful definition. I also notice that the next post is by a familiar poster!

 

[Svendo]

Svendo, do you actually have to show contrition (Soviet show trial stuff, 1950s) at speed awareness courses, or do you just have to attend and pay the fee.? Taking the points seems a good financial punt for me. This is a matter that is close to my heart right now.

No. They seem to actively avoid that, which makes sense as they want to keep you 'onside' so the training is effective. I found it very beneficial, and I feel I've refreshed my general defensive driving skills as a result.
I was expecting a 'round the class' admission of how you got caught what speed etc. but that didn't happen.
I think the course is far more effective at making roads safer than points and a fine.

 

[slowmotion]

I'm impressed that that is the case. Thank you.

 

[ColinJ]

30 mph is a relatively tough speed limit to break on a bicycle unless you are really, really trying hard

Not downhill it isn't!

I don't think I've done many rides in over 20 years up here where I didn't go over 30 mph, and I usually hit 40 mph and sometimes go over 50.

 

[benborp]

The highway code needs re-written on many counts and also laws need to be clarified

There are quite a few bits of the code that are a bit vague when it comes to cycling. Mind you, that might be due to cycling being a good deal more adaptable than other forms of transport.

Looking at the Richmond Park situation it seems the latest update to the legislation has taken cyclists' legal position when riding in the park into a grey area. Rather than 'vehicles' (which covers everything), it now refers to 'mechanically propelled vehicles' for which there is no definition within the act. Mechanically propelled doesn't necessarily mean having an engine. Sailing boats are considered mechanically propelled in some circumstances. Does anyone know of any case law that has ever considered whether a bicycle is mechanically propelled?

 

[slowmotion]

Sorry, my hearing is not as good as it used to be. Did you say chemically propelled?

 

[benborp]

30 mph is a relatively tough speed limit to break on a bicycle unless you are really, really trying hard, but the current mooted proposals to reduce to 20mph on some roads may see much more consistent breaking of the "speed limit" by bicycles.

Not that any sanction is applied to motor vehicle users exceeding the 20mph limit. They're self enforcing you know. There is a speed camera near me in a twenty zone. It has a handy little repeater sign under it. The sign says '30' and I know that people consistently pass in excess of thirty without setting it off.

Actually one of the circumstances in which I would feel morally comfortable exceeding the motor vehicle speed limit on a bike is in a twenty zone - when the surrounding traffic is exceeding the limit and my safety is better served by being in the traffic flow rather than being an additional, ineffective traffic calming measure.

 

[MrJamie]

30 mph is a relatively tough speed limit to break on a bicycle unless you are really, really trying hard, but the current mooted proposals to reduce to 20mph on some roads may see much more consistent breaking of the "speed limit" by bicycles.
Having said that the total energy delivered in a collision with a motorised vehicle travelling at any speed will always exceed by a considerable margin the energy delivered by a human powered vehicle travelling at the same speed and it ios the total energy del;ivered that causes the problem.
Aviation is a great comparison whereby regulation for flying machines of less than 450KG total flying weight are considerably less onerous than for larger heavyweight aeroplanes. A paramotor or single seat microlight would not even put a dent in the roof of Asda if it "plummeted" onto said roof, whereas a heavier aircraft "plummeting out of control" would likely cause untold carnage.

I was wondering about that recently, the difference in weight/momentum is unquestionably huge, even for a heavy cyclist on a laden bike, but cars are meant to be better to be hit by than they used to be with those improving NCAP ratings for hitting peds. In terms of the total energy delivered the car reduces its impact force by absorbing/deflecting where as a bike/rider isnt designed to do so. Im sure ive heard of a motorcyclist t-boning a car and coming off better than the driver. Im by no means suggesting getting hit by a car is preferable though, nor really relating this to the speed limit :P

 

[booze and cake]

I've always wondered about this, interesting reading.

So in summary,

-in Richmond Park you can definately be done for speeding. (20 mph limit). Very easily done down Broomfield hill where i've hit nearly 40 before. David Millar did'nt get in trouble and he put a video up of him doing over 30 mph average round the park did'nt he? And he's Scottish! I'm surprised Liz2 did'nt send him to the Tower of London. I know the video was removed from youtube or wherever he posted it. Can you be fined from video evidence alone even if the cops were'nt present to witness it first hand? I wonder if the Rozzers would have fined him if they'd caught him or let him off as he's pro.

-Although the law does not strictly say so you could be fined for furious cycling if you cycled at over 30 mph in a 30 mph zone, but there would have to be some evidence of 'furiousness' beyond just the speed itself? Seems vague, but for example speeding past a school at opening and closing times, which in places is a 20mph zone I can see it as reasonable. As for speeding past the same school in the evening with no one around an no traffic, I don't see anything wrong with that.

-As already mentioned I had also wondered about the increase in liklihood of cyclists being fined in London with the spread of 20mph zones (some entire boroughs are proposing a 20 mph limit, not just outside schools). I wonder if this means the law will be reviewed/challenged on this soon.

-Out on the open highway (60mph limit) we do not have any alpine type descents long enough to allow us to get to this speed in this country do we? I've managed 50mph descending in Wales but thats as fast as I've been, and that felt fast enough on a flexy old steel frame from the 80's. But even if you were able to top 60mph I guess out in quiet rural areas it would be hard to prove you were a danger to anyone but yourself so not sure any attempt to fine would be successful. Personally I think you'd deserve a medal!

-But what about Graham Obree and Beastie, he is trying to reach 100mph no? If you get caught doing 100mph in a car you lose you licence automatically don't you? Irrespective of danger to others or anyone in the vicinity, cycling at 100mph could'nt be described as anything other than furious could it? What would PC plod make of that?