Do young gurls drink too?

[Arch]

You say in your post that group of drunken men kicking things about is to be expected. Can I press you on why this is expected?

I'd certainly, until recently, have expected groups of lads to be more likely to behave like this than women. Maybe it's an age thing. Maybe it's something to do with living in suburbia. Maybe I just don't know the right sort of people.

For decades the media (by which I mean drama and news) have shown us male louts - sometimes in football guise, sometimes just running amok. Maybe women have been out there being stupid all this time, but it's a relavtively recent phenomenon to see them shown. Perhaps those of us who get our experience of the drunken masses from the media have just been shown the wrong picture all this time?

 

[CopperCyclist]

You say in your post that group of drunken men kicking things about is to be expected. Can I press you on why this is expected? I also ask as glow worm asks that what has the attractiveness of the girls got to do with them being drunk.

Every single Friday or Saturday night, without fail, there will be 'a group of drunken men kicking things about'. Without exception in my city anyway. Rarer, but still possible is drunken women acting this way - but it's rarer.

Stereotypically, drunken lads get rowdy and over excitable, drunken girls get loud and emotional. Before I get shot down, both of those are stereotypes, not facts, not 'from my experience', not factually true, however stereotypes tend to get based on something and then warped completely out of shape by people for their own uses.

In today's day and age, both sexes can and do drink to excess. Both put themselves into states where they are vulnerable, be that to sexual assault, assault, robbery, getting run over, or simply spending an unwanted night under the stars, you can pretty much take your pick. There's a significantly large amount of crime that has the factor 'alcohol involved', be it on the side of the offender or the victim, or both.

Most people would be no more surprised seeing these drunken girls than they would seeing the drunken blokes behind them.

 

[MissTillyFlop]

Crank when did I mention anything about opening doors? Please quit with the red herrings as that's an old and rather tired idea to be frank. Deal with the issue at hand not door opening unless it's relevant.

Keeping this short and sweet.

You say in your post that group of drunken men kicking things about is to be expected. Can I press you on why this is expected? I also ask as glow worm asks that what has the attractiveness of the girls got to do with them being drunk.

Apart from that rather telling viewpoint, I have to point to you is you haven't really answered any of the things asked of you.

I can only conclude that we're expecting men to have much lower standards than women. Which isn't true.

I think the real issue is not on whether men or women drink the most or behave the worst, but why binge drinking is so deeply engrained in our culture.

I was teetotal for a while, but I felt so absolutely excluded from any social gathering (people reacted to this like I said I had leprposy!) that I started drinking again(albeit a couple of pints a night rather than half a bottle of jack) and I think that this is just plain wrong.

 

[Crankarm]

I just guess I am old fashioned. Seeing a woman blind drunk on the pavement head in the gutter or even two, making a show of themselves is a shock. I guess I come from the pov that well you would expect this from men, drinking to excess has been the norm for many a moon, but not women who generally would have had more sense one used to think and who really wouldn't stoop that low, but obviously with all this modern day emancipation it has been a race to get into the gutter with the men. I just find it shocking especially the number of obviously intelligent young women, attractive and not so attractive, less I am called a mysogenist, who choose to drink to excess on a regular basis putting their health at risk and making a show of themselves at the same time. Not only is it disturbing but frankly it is depressing. We can't get on X-factor so we will try Police Camera Action instead.

Recently there was the young mum who left her two young kids in her car outside a bar/night club whilst she was inside boozing. Not sure if she received a prison sentence. This is obviously an extreme but it illustrates the scenario I paint. Agreed it could equally be a man to deflect claims of sexism, but the fact that it is a woman with young children outside, neglecting her fundamental maternal duties. Shocking.

 

[MissTillyFlop]

I just guess I am old fashioned. Seeing a woman blind drunk on the pavement head in the gutter or even two, making a show of themselves is a shock. I guess I come from the pov that well you would expect this from men, drinking to excess has been the norm for many a moon, but not women who generally would have had more sense one used to think and who really wouldn't stoop that low, but obviously with all this modern day emancipation it has been a race to get into the gutter with the men. I just find it shocking especially the number of obviously intelligent young women, attractive and not so attractive, less I am called a mysogenist, who choose to drink to excess on a regular basis putting their health at risk and making a show of themselves at the same time. Not only is it disturbing but frankly it is depressing. We can't get on X-factor so we will try Police Camera Action instead.

Recently there was the young mum who left her two young kids in her car outside a bar/night club whilst she was inside boozing. Not sure if she received a prison sentence. This is obviously an extreme but it illustrates the scenario I paint. Agreed it could equally be a man to deflect claims of sexism, but the fact that it is a woman with young children outside, neglecting her fundamental maternal duties. Shocking.

Agreed, that is appalling behaviour on behalf of the mum. But where was the dad in all this?

 

[TheDoctor]

Removed.

 

[ttcycle]

I accept you're a traditionalist Crank, and you have some very old fashioned and not having a go but slightly outmoded ideas.

That's what people were trying to point out. It's not a personal attack on you.

I do need to say that no one was criticising you helping but it's the old world view you have of men and women which can sometimes be sexist.

To give you an example - in your post above:

You mention a fundamental duty of a woman is being a mother.

That is open to debate and that is what I mean by making a 'value judgement'. Your OP was laden with them and with it lots of assumptions about men and women.

I think a lot of people questioned your value judgements in your OP based on those traditional views of yours.
The traditional views just reinforce looking at men and women in limited ways which helps no-one. Things aren't black and white - it's grey or as I like to look at it, colourful, rich with meaning and I find by reducing to black and white demarcations we miss the big picture.

I appreciate Copper cyclist and Tilly's posts as I think that the drinking culture in this country is a thing to discuss and effects both men and women negatively and does offer an interesting debate.

 

[Fnaar]

Google fight:

Crankarm -vs- TheDoctor

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Crankarm&word2=TheDoctor

 

[CopperCyclist]

You mention a fundamental duty of a woman is being a mother.

To be fair, he didn't - he was referring to a specific woman, who DID have children, who neglected her fundamental duties as a mother, which she was. He didn't specify that he felt all woman had a fundamental duty to be one!

I think we'd all agree that once you become a parent (note, parent, I.e. mother or father) you have a duty not to treat your children the way that lady did.

 

[Arch]

You mention a fundamental duty of a woman is being a mother.

He referred to a specific woman, who had children. He didn't said that all women have a fundamental duty to mother children. I'm old fashioned enough to think that once you have children, then yes, you have a fundamental duty to look after them. If that means giving up having nights out, tough.

Of course the other thing that's probably changed in the last few decades is that women are more able to go out and get smashed - time was most women would be wives and mothers, and have no choice but to stay home. With people settling down later, there's more opportunity for all to go out and be irresponsible.

 

[ttcycle]

To be fair, he didn't - he was referring to a specific woman, who DID have children, who neglected her fundamental duties as a mother, which she was. He didn't specify that he felt all woman had a fundamental duty to be one!

I think we'd all agree that once you become a parent (note, parent, I.e. mother or father) you have a duty not to treat your children the way that lady did.

I don't fancy getting technical about it but by becoming a parent, it doesn't necessarily mean that people can tap into their maternal well spring of fundamental duties and as Tilly points out - where was the dad in all of this and why no decrying of his paternal responsibilities...there is such a difference in how men and women are perceived.

 

[CopperCyclist]

I don't fancy getting technical about it but by becoming a parent, it doesn't necessarily mean that people can tap into their maternal well spring of fundamental duties and as Tilly points out - where was the dad in all of this and why no decrying of his paternal responsibilities...there is such a difference in how men and women are perceived.

No, that's very true, and I accept the point about the father - hence the use of the term 'parent' rather than mother in my post. However, I still don't think anyone would argue that someone not 'tapping into the maternal (or paternal) wellspring of fundamental duties' is an excuse why any decent human would leave a child outside a nightclub whilst inside drinking!

Your reply for me hits upon the underlying problem IMHO though - it's far, far to easy for people nowadays to have children when they aren't ready morally, financially, emotionally or otherwise to support them.

 

[ufkacbln]

Slightly OT

One of the DJ's on Radio Solent used to walk across the common to the Havelock Road Studio in the early hours.

He used to see a lot of barely dressed students staggering across the Common.

He realised that he was getting older when his first thought was "They must be cold!"

 

[Maz]

Google fight:

Crankarm -vs- TheDoctor

http://www.googlefig...word2=TheDoctor

What a brilliantly useless piece of software! Love it!
(Crankarm won when I tried it).

 

[TheDoctor]

OK.
I'll take the Googlefight result on the chin
No hard feelings

*skulks off, licking wounds*