Don't do as I do...

[GrumpyGregry]

Pages 3 and 4 of this thread in commuting spawned a fascinating debate. Where do we stand on discouraging our loved ones from taking part in activities which we undertake/used to undertake but which we consider to be too risky for them? Is it hypocrisy pure and simple? Sexism? The worst kind of paternalism?

My starters for 10.... Things I do or used to do that I wouldn't want my loved ones to do...

I discouraged my son from playing rugby union (my daughter was never offered the option)
I discouraged both from smoking - bit of a fail there
I discouraged both from taking illegal drugs - jury still out
I discouraged, both, in the strongest possible terms, from riding motorcycles - I won thank goodness
I discourage my son from cycling in London - thus far he walks or take the bus

and if my wife woke up one day and said "I'm going to cycle to work today" I would attempt to dissuade her on bended knee.

On the flip side; when all three of them told me separately over a period of a year "We are worried sick when you go out on that large powerful motorbike" I decided to sell it.


Your thoughts....

 

[redjedi]

I would probably be the same for some of those when I have a family of my own, except for

I discouraged my son from playing rugby union (my daughter was never offered the option)

I discourage my son from cycling in London - thus far he walks or take the bus

and if my wife woke up one day and said "I'm going to cycle to work today" I would attempt to dissuade her on bended knee.

I don't see any problems with those, and they carry similar risks to almost any other activity in life. In fact I would be encouraging them to cycle to work, in London or not.

 

[Ravenbait]

I fundamentally disagree entirely with the entire notion of "Don't do as I do, do as I say." My mother wasn't entirely happy about me learning to ride a motorbike, but both my parents ride so she wasn't going to tell me not to.



To me it's hypocritical and I have an innate aversion to hypocrisy. I also can't help analysing the underlying principle.



Let's say Person A undertakes something perceived as risky -- to keep it neutral we'll go with base jumping. The levels of inherent risk are probably fairly quantifiable. Person A must have calculated that risk and have reached a conclusion about his safety in taking part in the activity. Person B, who is related to Person A, expresses a desire to take part. Person A refuses, and, depending on the relationship, uses either emotional blackmail ("I couldn't bear it if anything happened to you") or authority ("I am your parent and you'll do as I say") in order to enforce that refusal.



What does this say to me? It says that Person A values his feelings more than he values Person B's freedom of choice. It says that Person A considers himself superior on some level to Person B; that he thinks Person B's responsibility to him is greater than his responsibility to Person B, otherwise he wouldn't be base-jumping either. If he enjoys base-jumping so much that it's worth the risk, what gives him the right to deprive Person B of the opportunity to experience that same enjoyment?



Greg, you said that your family ultimately persuaded you to stop riding your motorbike. Do you think this might have had anything to do with you refusing to let them ride because you thought it was too dangerous for them? You were the one already riding, and they would surely have treated your perception of the risk as being more based in fact than their own. If you, who already too part in the activity, thought it was too risky for them, no wonder they ended up thinking it was too risky for you.



If I love someone then I want that person to be happy and to be free to make his own decisions. I might discuss his choices with him if I disagree; he will either be persuaded or not. I wouldn't dream of, for instance, telling my other half not to learn to ride a motorbike, or to wear a helmet on his bike, or to take the bus to work instead of riding if the weather were bad. I have not once considered asking him not to go climbing -- it wouldn't even occur to me. Equally, he allows me to make my own risk assessments when it comes to open water swimming, hiking, longer distance rides and racing. We will discuss it and he might express a strong opinion, but the decision is still mine.



Frankly, if anybody told me that it was too dangerous for me to do something that he was already doing (assuming, of course, that I wanted to do it), that's a relationship-breaker right there and then. Either explain to me how I learn to do the thing while managing the risk or stop doing it yourself.



Sam

 

[dellzeqq]

I advised The Kid not to do coke - although after I had given it up. I pleaded with her to study when she was doing her A-levels, although I was a useless A-level student. Then again, I didn't hide my dingy past from her.

 

[Ravenbait]

I advised The Kid not to do coke - although after I had given it up. I pleaded with her to study when she was doing her A-levels, although I was a useless A-level student. Then again, I didn't hide my dingy past from her.

But Dell, I humbly submit there is a difference between "Don't do as I do" and "Please learn from my mistakes".

Sam

 

[snailracer]

But Dell, I humbly submit there is a difference between "Don't do as I do" and "Please learn from my mistakes".

Sam

There is a difference in credibility, but being advised by a hypocrite does not necessarily make the advice wrong.

Plus, most people are hypocrites at least some of the time. Do you believe in obeying the law? Now, have you ever broken any?

 

[dellzeqq]

But Dell, I humbly submit there is a difference between "Don't do as I do" and "Please learn from my mistakes".

Sam

you're right, although I never pretend that taking coke was a mistake. It was great - it's just that the last time was my 50th birthday, the day before a CTC club ride, and I thought it was time to make a decision. I just have a problem with the kid getting wasted.

You see, I think I'm with Greg. I operate a double standard, although, like Greg, I'm pretty open about it.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

you're right, although I never pretend that taking coke was a mistake. It was great - it's just that the last time was my 50th birthday, the day before a CTC club ride, and I thought it was time to make a decision. I just have a problem with the kid getting wasted.

did you also advise her to eschew booze?

 

[Ravenbait]

you're right, although I never pretend that taking coke was a mistake. It was great - it's just that the last time was my 50th birthday, the day before a CTC club ride, and I thought it was time to make a decision. I just have a problem with the kid getting wasted.

You see, I think I'm with Greg. I operate a double standard, although, like Greg, I'm pretty open about it.

I couldn't do that. I couldn't tell someone not to do something I had done unless I considered that something a mistake.

I also wouldn't pay much attention to someone who told me I shouldn't do something while continuing to do it himself and saying it was great unless there was a very specific reason why that something was unsuitable for me to do (lack of 3D vision, lack of necessary physical capacity/attributes, he knew me well enough to know I'd absolutely hate it -- and even then I might be tempted to give it a go and risk getting an "I told you so").

But then, my philosophy is that you'll always regret not trying something more than trying and failing, or trying and not liking it. Also, I'm not a parent.

Sam

 

[Ravenbait]

There is a difference in credibility, but being advised by a hypocrite does not necessarily make the advice wrong.

Plus, most people are hypocrites at least some of the time. Do you believe in obeying the law? Now, have you ever broken any?

If you consider something a mistake then you are not being hypocritical.

Sam

 

[GrumpyGregry]

But Dell, I humbly submit there is a difference between "Don't do as I do" and "Please learn from my mistakes".

Sam

So we accept that people may have reasons other than a desire to dominate another then?

I discouraged my son from playing rugby union (my daughter was never offered the option)
Why? Because I sustain a permanent brain injury, have a close friend in a wheelchair, and I am wracked with artritis from injuries sustained by play the beautiful game.
I discouraged both from smoking - bit of a fail there
Why? Smoking killed my mother and gave my father cancer twice.
I discouraged both from taking illegal drugs - jury still out
Why? I have a very close relative who is a recovering drug addict and I witnessed her decline first hand and up close and still have to deal with the psychosis she suffers from.
I discouraged, both, in the strongest possible terms, from riding motorcycles - I won thank goodness
Why? The accident stats for young novice motorcyclists in SE England in the 21st C are dreadful. I've lost close friends and have friends disabled through motorcycle accidents. The last guy I bought a bike from died a month later on his new Fireblade.
I discourage my son from cycling in London - thus far he walks or take the bus
Why? Novice cyclists get hurt. I'd discourage anyone who hasn't cycled since primary school from riding from N16 to Oxford Street without taking a lot of training first.

 

[snailracer]

If you consider something a mistake then you are not being hypocritical.

Sam

But if you believe something was a mistake, but carry on doing it, where does that put you?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

But then, my philosophy is that you'll always regret not trying something more than trying and failing, or trying and not liking it. Also, I'm not a parent.

Sam

slight tongue in cheek - incest? heroin? Russian roulette? bestiality? driving whilst really really pissed?

I've not tried any of them and don't feel the loss!

 

[gary r]

My brothers wife told her teenage sons she had been to see a clairvoyant and had been told " either one of her sons was likely to die in a motorcycle accident" not true, but scared the hell out of the boys, and they didnt bother with motorbikes !!!!

 

[Ravenbait]

So we accept that people may have reasons other than a desire to dominate another then?

Did anyone suggest that was the only reason?

I discouraged my son from playing rugby union (my daughter was never offered the option)
Why? Because I sustain a permanent brain injury, have a close friend in a wheelchair, and I am wracked with artritis from injuries sustained by play the beautiful game.
I discouraged both from smoking - bit of a fail there
Why? Smoking killed my mother and gave my father cancer twice.

That your daughter wasn't ever given the option annoys me, but I assume that was the school's decision. I played rugby for a while but lack of 3D ended up in the local hospital asking me not to play ball games any more owing to repeated head injuries, so I had to give up. Experience showed that the risks outweighed the benefits in my particular case (the same is true of technical mountain biking, though).

You played it. I assume you enjoyed it. If you had the opportunity to go back and live that part of your life over, would you play rugby again?

Do you smoke yourself? Again I note discouraged rather than banned.

I discouraged, both, in the strongest possible terms, from riding motorcycles - I won thank goodness
Why? The accident stats for young novice motorcyclists in SE England in the 21st C are dreadful. I've lost close friends and have friends disabled through motorcycle accidents. The last guy I bought a bike from died a month later on his new Fireblade.

Yes, they are. But that's an argument for behaviour modification in my book, not an outright ban. My parents allowed me to ride motorbikes and I've been driving since I was 12 (not on the road, obviously). What they did do, rather than telling me I shouldn't do a thing, was explain to me very carefully what the risks were and say that I could do these things on the proviso that I was sensible about it. They were privileges that could be taken away if I failed to treat the activities with the respect they deserve. I wouldn't ever tell someone else not to ride a motorbike.

I discourage my son from cycling in London - thus far he walks or take the bus
Why? Novice cyclists get hurt. I'd discourage anyone who hasn't cycled since primary school from riding from N16 to Oxford Street without taking a lot of training first.

I don't know how old your children are so it's difficult for me to have an opinion on whether it's appropriate or not. But if your son expressed a wish to cycle in London, would you just say no or would you help him develop the skill you feel is necessary?

Sam