Don't do as I do...

[Ravenbait]

But if you believe something was a mistake, but carry on doing it, where does that put you?

Depends on your reasons for carrying on doing it. What sort of thing did you have in mind?

Sam

 

[Ravenbait]

slight tongue in cheek - incest? heroin? Russian roulette? bestiality? driving whilst really really pissed?

I've not tried any of them and don't feel the loss!

Do you have any inclination to try any of them, though?

I hoped it would be pretty obvious that I meant that I feel there is an inherent value in novel experience above and beyond the experience itself.

Sam

 

[snailracer]

Depends on your reasons for carrying on doing it. What sort of thing did you have in mind?

Sam

How about....smoking?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Did anyone suggest that was the only reason?

It was a strong theme in your A vs B argument earlier.

Rugby.... Would I play if given my time again, yes, but only if I could avoid the games in which I got concussed and the one with the serious head injury. otherwise no. having an (avoidable) impairment to ones faculties is no joke as I see you know yourself, and let's just say as you get older it get less and less bearable.

Smoking... I only smoked for a while, and even then it was a pipe, though I enjoy a good cigar from time-to-time

Banning... I've never banned anyone from doing anything. Pragmatically it isn't possible. You can't, they will find a way. Hence my use of 'discourage'

Motorcycling... If a 17 year old niece or nephew came to me and said "You used to own motorbikes Greg I'm putting in for my part 1" I would not be happy for them, neither would their parents as it happens, and the Dad's are all ex-motorcyclists including one ex-motorbike paramedic.

Novices cycling in London..... or anywhere.... (son is 23 daughter 21 btw) - Helping them develop those oh so necessary skills it not something it is practical for me to do so I'd suggest getting professional training and certainly would not assist them say by taking a bike to their digs for them until that had been done. If they tried to liberated it from the shed themselves I would remonstrate in the strongest possible terms. Cycling in Horsham where we live and in London are two totally different experiences and the former does nothing to prepare you for the latter. imo anyway.

I am happy to be called a hypocrite, or be accused of having double standards, in all such matters. I actually think a degree of such relational hypocrisy is hard wired into our DNA. I firmly believe that is some things the voice of experience outweighs the confidence of youth.

Of course one's children or life partner can only learn from their own mistakes not mine but as someone in a loving relationship with them I feel compelled to persuade them to avoid the mistakes as the consequences can be painful.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Do you have any inclination to try any of them, though?

I hoped it would be pretty obvious that I meant that I feel there is an inherent value in novel experience above and beyond the experience itself.

Sam

I have a strong inclination, in my 51st year, to do a static line parachute jump from a perfectly serviceable aeroplane, preferably a Dakota. The Aged P, 90 this month, thinks I have gone slightly insane. Yet he spent much of his youth from 1940 - 46 doing just that and I will have the advantage of not having a bunch of angry Nazi's waiting to meet me when I land.

We want those we love to be safe. Even at the cost of their freedom.

 

[dellzeqq]

did you also advise her to eschew booze?

shoot no! What would be the point! She's got living proof of the perils of booze relaxing on the front room sofa every night!

 

[Ravenbait]

How about....smoking?

It's an addiction. If a smoker were trying to tell me to give up without making or having made any attempt himself, and who said that he enjoyed it and didn't regret it, and he was my primary source of information about it, I wouldn't listen to him.

Some people are happy to have double standards. On that we'll just have to agree to disagree. I, personally, would find that incredibly difficult. I understand Greg's point of view regarding rugby entirely. I feel the same way about ski-ing. If I had it to do all over again and could avoid the worst of my ski-ing accidents then of course I would ski. If I were told that the fall that wrecked my lower back and shoulders and ended my Olympic archery career before it got properly started was inevitable, I would not go ski-ing.

I wouldn't, however, tell anyone not to ski based on my experience. Because my experience isn't that of anyone else. Permanent disability/injury is not inevitable (my parents still ski). And, at the end of the day, you could get run over by a bus tomorrow. I don't regret my short-lived ski-racing experience, but I'd have preferred to carry on with the archery. I was better at it. Also I've been in pain for a very long time as a result.

Greg said:

It was a strong theme in your A vs B argument earlier.

I was taking my context from the post title. "Don't do as I do" denotes the present tense and thus suggests that A is carrying on doing something that he is refusing to allow B to do. "Don't do as I did" is a different kettle of fish entirely.

At 23 and 24 I would think that your children are young adults who have a brain and presence aforethought and should therefore be capable of making their own risk assessments given good quality data. But you're the parent, not I, and it's your decision to make. We are, ultimately, talking about feelings. Feelings are generally neither right nor wrong: they just are. How we act upon those feelings is determined by our own moral compasses, and I wouldn't dream of telling you how to interact with your family.

I was raised in a family that is not in any way risk-averse. I think it's just a different way of seeing the world. I have always been encouraged to be independent and make up my own mind but also to make sure I had enough of the right information to come to a reasonable decision.

Sam

 

[Ravenbait]

We want those we love to be safe. Even at the cost of their freedom.

I think this is where we differ.

I want those I love to be happy, fulfilled, experience ecstasy and joy, live life to the full, even at the expense of their safety. All I ask is that they do a very careful risk/benefit analysis when doing something potentially hazardous and do what they can to mitigate the risks.

It is, after all, the most (and the least) they will get from me.


Sam

 

[snailracer]

...
I am happy to be called a hypocrite, or be accused of having double standards, in all such matters. I actually think a degree of such relational hypocrisy is hard wired into our DNA. I firmly believe that is some things the voice of experience outweighs the confidence of youth.
...

Definitely, being personally imperfect is part of being human.

However, the correctness of advice on most matters can be evaluated objectively by suitable framing and analysis of hard facts, regardless of the personal credibility of the advisor: the "all Greeks are liars" conundrum is easily solved in real life, it's difficult only in philosophical discussions.

 

[fossyant]

There is a bunch of cyclists on here, telling other folk not to cycle, and motorcyclists, what ?

One could always 'box' people up for life

All you can do is advise, and explain the pitfalls.

Cycling is safe, so is motorbiking... you just have to have eyes in the back of your head sometimes !

 

[tdr1nka]

Greg, I'm a cycling instructor with over 20 years experience of cycling in central London.
Is be more than happy to give your son training and skills assessment.
PM if you're interested.

 

[MartinC]

The interesting part of the debate for me is the irrational part of it and how it relates to cycling. For example, I, my partner and both my adult sons cycle (and my father did when he was alive). I would never dream of discouraging them from doing it, quite the contrary. Nevertheless I still get twinges of anxiety about them doing it. It's totally irrational not only because I do but because I also know that it's a perfectly safe activity compared with other normal things we do.

I think part of the issue is specific to cycling. We know cognitively that it's safe but we also are often confronted with circumstances where we experience very directly the things that could go wrong and how dramatically they could affect us. But most of the time they don't actually eventuate. Either because they weren't going to happen anyway (e.g. the close pass that would've been a problem if you'd hit a pothole and fallen off at the same time) or because you've already taken steps to mitigate them (e.g. what would've been a close pass if you'd been riding in secondary). There's a perception of danger which we can't rationalise properly.

 

[snailracer]

It's an addiction. If a smoker were trying to tell me to give up without making or having made any attempt himself, and who said that he enjoyed it and didn't regret it, and he was my primary source of information about it, I wouldn't listen to him.
...

This does not occur in real life, where there is always reference to external, hard facts. Or Google!

Even if the hypothetical smoker really was your only source of information, do you make your decision based on your subjective belief that he is:
(A) in your judgement, some form of hypocrite, therefore should be disregarded;
or
(B) in your judgement, someone who had your best interests at heart and therefore should be listened to?

Not such a straightforward decision, even when relying solely on your subjective opinion of the advisor, wouldn't you say?

My own father was a heavy smoker but always told me not to smoke. His behaviour was obviously hypocritical, but argument (B) persuaded me to follow his advice, which, now as an informed adult, I agree was correct. Thanks, dad!

 

[Ravenbait]

This does not occur in real life, where there is always reference to external, hard facts. Or Google!

In which case you are ignoring the extra weight people tend to give people who are close to them. One tends towards more trust of the opinions of people one already trusts.

Even if the hypothetical smoker really was your only source of information, do you make your decision based on your subjective belief that he is:
(A) in your judgement, some form of hypocrite, therefore should be disregarded;
or
(B) in your judgement, someone who had your best interests at heart and therefore should be listened to?

Depends on who he was and what his reasons were for (a) telling me not to smoke; (b) carrying on smoking himself; and © whether I agreed with his interpretation of my best interests. You present a false dichotomy because you assume that "for the best reasons" means that it's correct. If he were my only source of information, what reason could he give that was so compelling I should refuse even to try it, despite him carrying on doing it?

I have a consistent response to a variety of scenarios, but they are never as straightforward as your initial proposition, which was "believes it was a mistake, carries on doing it" with no reason given for the continuation of the behaviour or the belief that it was a mistake.

Honestly, it's up to others how they live their lives. I think it's wrong to impose restrictions on others that one is not prepared to abide by oneself, no matter the reasons. But I'm also a relativist so it doesn't bother me that you don't agree, as long as you don't try to tell me what to do or not to do. And that's highly unlikely.

Sam

 

[PpPete]

I want those I love to be happy, fulfilled, experience ecstasy and joy, live life to the full, even at the expense of their safety. All I ask is that they do a very careful risk/benefit analysis when doing something potentially hazardous and do what they can to mitigate the risks.

It is, after all, the most (and the least) they will get from me.

Sam

I don't expect my youngest children to be able to conduct a thorough risk/benefit analysis...but because I want them to be happy, fulfilled and to have the chance to share the experiences I had (some of which I continue to enjoy) they have all had the chance to experience & enjoy ski-ing, rock-climbing, rugby, cycling..... all in as safe and controlled a manner as I can contrive - either by learning from my own (sometimes less than safe) experience, or by professional instruction.

I cannot imagine depriving them of those experiences, but I'm glad they've not (so far) wanted to follow my example and try smoking.