Doubling Up On Road

[montyboy]

But both cyclist and motorist will consider themselves correct, and as there is no third party to judge, surely the following vehicle must give way to the leading vehicle?

I think if there is any doubt the motorist should always give way to the cyclist.

The risk is far to great to do otherwise.

 

[John the Monkey]

How can you describe the actions of a cyclist taking the primary when it is not appropriate as being "correct"?

I think the problem is that you're making an assumption that the driver knows when taking primary is correct or incorrect.

Given the knowledge of cycling, traffic law &c displayed by the aggressive drivers I've encountered, that's not an assumption I feel is justified.

 

[Bicycle]

[QUOTE 1589500"]
Ok. Becoming aggressive as a result of someone else's road position is a sign of one type of poor driver.

And I know that I was generalising. The point is that if the positioning is correct then any aggression is unacceptable. And, despite any suggestion otherwise, no-one here is defending poor positioning.
[/quote]


Indeed, nobody can defend poor positioning. I do not seek to defend it. But I might have some sort of plea in mitigation for some drivers.

A difficulty may arise when the cyclist is taking Primary and the following vehicle has not heard of primary and does not see what the cyclist is trying to achieve, despite having driven regularly for 20-odd years and accrued no penalty points.

There are many such motorists around. I am not one, but they abound.

They are being confronted with a bicycle being driven in what they may consider the 'wrong' part of the carriageway for a bicycle. They may fail to see the justification for this positioning.

Many, many of today's motorists might react so. They may mention to friends that they were held up by a bicycle being ridden in the middle of a carriageway; it is not unlikely that their friends will also be quite unfamiliar with the notion of Primary.

This is not necessarily because the driver is a pig-ignorant, ill-trained, ill-read, aggressive, bicycle-hating moron.

It may just be that the tiny, tiny amount of literature and publicity about the use of primary has not filtered out beyond the arena of the cycling enthusiast in their area.

In my Marches market town the only mention I've seen of Primary was in a small folded-A4 leaflet in a dusty rack at the local Police Station. Most local residents will never have seen it.

 

[montyboy]

Indeed, nobody can defend poor positioning. I do not seek to defend it. But I might have some sort of plea in mitigation for some drivers.

A difficulty may arise when the cyclist is taking Primary and the following vehicle has not heard of primary and does not see what the cyclist is trying to achieve, despite having driven regularly for 20-odd years and accrued no penalty points.

There are many such motorists around. I am not one, but they abound.

They are being confronted with a bicycle being driven in what they may consider the 'wrong' part of the carriageway for a bicycle. They may fail to see the justification for this positioning.

Many, many of today's motorists might react so. They may mention to friends that they were held up by a bicycle being ridden in the middle of a carriageway; it is not unlikely that their friends will also be quite unfamiliar with the notion of Primary.

This is not necessarily because the driver is a pig-ignorant, ill-trained, ill-read, aggressive, bicycle-hating moron.

It may just be that the tiny, tiny amount of literature and publicity about the use of primary has not filtered out beyond the arena of the cycling enthusiast in their area.

In my Marches market town the only mention I've seen of Primary was in a small folded-A4 leaflet in a dusty rack at the local Police Station. Most local residents will never have seen it.

I think that this is a very valid point.

I am familiar with the concept of "primary" from a motorcycle traing course I attended. The only cycle training I received was back in the 70's when I did my cycling proficiency and I was told to ride 18 inches from the kerb.

I think there needs to be more publicity/info for the motorists especially in view of the ever increasing number of cyclists on the roads

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Would it help if we had primary schools?

(runs away....)

 

[briantrumpet]

I think there needs to be more publicity/info for the motorists especially in view of the ever increasing number of cyclists on the roads

Step forward Reginald Molehusband. Maybe what he did for parking he could do for drivers' understanding of why good cyclists cycle as they do.

As Tony Blair said, "Mine is the first generation able to contemplate the possibility that we may live our entire lives without going to war or sending our children to war." Oh, sorry wrong quote. I meant, "Education, education, education". That would seem to be the answer. Now, where's Mr Molehusband?

 

[montyboy]

Step forward Reginald Molehusband. Maybe what he did for parking he could do for drivers' understanding of why good cyclists cycle as they do.

As Tony Blair said, "Mine is the first generation able to contemplate the possibility that we may live our entire lives without going to war or sending our children to war." Oh, sorry wrong quote. I meant, "Education, education, education". That would seem to be the answer. Now, where's Mr Molehusband?

or "clunk click every trip" !

 

[benb]

No, what I am saying is that if you take primary when it is not appropriate this may be construed as being aggresive and is likely to be met with a poor response.

OK, so we all agree that you shouldn't take primary when it's not appropriate. Being human, we'll probably make mistakes from time to time. If in doubt, it's better to err on the side of caution and go for primary.

But - I think most drivers don't have the first idea as to when a cyclist in front of them taking primary is appropriate or not.

 

[benb]

[QUOTE 1589500"]
Ok. Becoming aggressive as a result of someone else's road position is a sign of one type of poor driver.

And I know that I was generalising. The point is that if the positioning is correct then any aggression is unacceptable. And, despite any suggestion otherwise, no-one here is defending poor positioning.
[/quote]

Even if the position is not correct, save for a muttered "FFS".

 

[John the Monkey]

They are being confronted with a bicycle being driven in what they may consider the 'wrong' part of the carriageway for a bicycle. They may fail to see the justification for this positioning.

Many, many of today's motorists might react so. They may mention to friends that they were held up by a bicycle being ridden in the middle of a carriageway; it is not unlikely that their friends will also be quite unfamiliar with the notion of Primary.

This is not necessarily because the driver is a pig-ignorant, ill-trained, ill-read, aggressive, bicycle-hating moron.

They're probably not bad people per se, but so what? I've had people justify a close "punishment pass" on the basis that my lights were illegal (because one was a flashing light, legal since 2005, and actually mentioned as "permitted" in the current Highway Code). The difference here isn't so much that people can't be bothered to keep their knowledge up to date, so much as them not seeing why they shouldn't take out their frustrations on others. That's bad when all you have between you and them is a layer or two of performance fabric, and possibly a polystyrene hat.

I daresay motorists in France and Belgium are as ignorant about current traffic law in their countries, but it doesn't seem to lead them to the conclusion that they'll whizz past an inch off the cyclist's elbow[1] if they think that the cyclist is in the wrong (so far as I can tell from my experience there, at least).

It's also worth restating that primary has a twofold benefit - firstly, it forestalls the dangerously close overtake, secondly, if that overtake happens, you have room to escape into. If you're already in the gutter, you're more likely to be offed, as I found out to my cost after a driver clipped my bars and left me lying on the pavement[2] during my first, abortive attempt at taking up cycling.

[1] Although I'll grant you that they seem to harbour an intense and obvious dislike for their fellow motorists.
[2] Handy, as it allowed all the following cars (I think four or five, although I was too dazed for keeping count) to breeze on past my prostrate form, as I'd not fallen in the carriageway.

 

[John the Monkey]

Even if the position is not correct, save for a muttered "FFS".

Highway Code 147:

You should;

* not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse. Pull over, calm down and, when you feel relaxed, continue your journey.

If only all drivers took some kind of test, where they were supposed to learn things like this.

 

[montyboy]

Highway Code 147:



If only all drivers took some kind of test, where they were supposed to learn things like this.

and cyclists.

there is a guy on this forum who seems to have a number of clips on you tube showing himself shouting at motorists.

 

[Poacher]

.......and there's also a guy on this forum who thinks reading the Highway Code is only for "sad old bankers" like me.


Have you found a responsible adult to read and explain the HC to you yet, freecyclist?

 

[snorri]

there is a guy on this forum who seems to have a number of clips on you tube showing himself shouting at motorists.

You're making things up again.

 

[Poacher]

We're still well short of 2000 posts, and midnight is fast approaching. Come on now, one last push!