Driverless vehicles - Will they change cycling in any ways?

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presta

Guru
The German Ministry of Transport were one of the first, if not the first, to publish a report on the ethics of autonomous cars. It's particularly interesting to see it contradicting itself from one paragraph to the next.

"The protection of individuals takes precedence over all other utilitarian considerations."
So abandon all motor transport then.

"a balance is struck between maximum personal freedom of choice in a general regime of development and the freedom of others and their safety"
Oh dear, that didn't last long, did it.

"the technology must be designed in such a way that critical situations do not arise in the first place. These include dilemma situations, in other words a situation in which an automated vehicle has to “decide” which of two evils"
Good luck with that one.

"preventing hazards by means of “intelligent” road infrastructure – should be used"
It's not used for human drivers.

"the protection of human life enjoys top priority in a balancing of legally protected interests"
Oh look, that one's back again. Presumably this balance doesn't involve anything such as a moral dilemma?

Wait a minute though:

"Genuine dilemmatic decisions, such as a decision between one human life and another, depend on the actual specific situation, incorporating “unpredictable” behaviour by parties affected. They can thus not be clearly standardized, nor can they be programmed such that they are ethically unquestionable."
So that's clear then. Everyone got that?

"any distinction based on personal features (age, gender, physical or mental constitution) is strictly prohibited"
Women & children not first.

"General programming to reduce the number of personal injuries may be justifiable. Those parties involved in the generation of mobility risks must not sacrifice non-involved parties."
So what happens when the parties involved in generating the risk outnumber those non-involved?

"the accountability that was previously the sole preserve of the individual shifts from the motorist to the manufacturers and operators of the technological systems and to the bodies responsible for taking infrastructure, policy and legal decisions"
...and not the party responsible for the decision to buy a car, and travel?

"Liability for damage caused by activated automated driving systems is governed by the same principles as in other product liability"
What about liability for the decision to activate the automated driving system?...or not:

"Is there an ethical obligation on the driver not to drive himself if this contributes towards enhancing safety?"

Data protection:
"Learning systems that are self-learning in vehicle operation and their connection to central scenario databases may be ethically allowed if, and to the extent that, they generate safety gains"
but:
"It is the vehicle keepers and vehicle users who decide whether their vehicle data that are generated are to be forwarded and used"
So how do you operate a self-learning central database if the car owner has a veto over what data it can collect?

"The driver of a car is driving along a road on a hillside. The highly automated car detects several children playing on the road. The driver of a manual vehicle would now have the choice of taking his own life by driving over the cliff or risking the death of the children by heading towards the children playing in the road environment. In the case of a highly automated car, the programmer or the self-learning machine would have to decide what should be done in this situation.

"The problem associated with the decision to be taken by the programmer is that he might take the „correct“ ethical decision for the human in conformity with the basic consensus but this decision remains an external decision which, moreover, does not intuitively capture a specific situation (with all the benefits and drawbacks of intuitive/situational behavioural control) but has to appraise a situation in abstract/general terms. In the case of an intuitive decision, the individual (in this case the driver) will either accept the risk of his own death or not.

"Ultimately, therefore, the programmer or machine would, in extremis, be able to take correct ethical decisions on the demise of the individual human being. Taken to its logical conclusion, humans would, in existential life-or-death situations, no longer be autonomous but heteronomous.

"This conclusion is problematic in many respects. On the one hand, there is the danger of the state acting in a very paternalistic manner and prescribing a „correct“ ethical course of action (to the extent that the programming prescribes this). On the other hand, this would be antithetical to the value system of humanism, in which the individual is at the centre of all considerations. A development of this nature thus has to be viewed critically."
Bear in mind that moral dilemmas have already been pre-programmed out, and the age of potential victims is not allowed to matter.

"What is problematical about dilemma situations is that they involve decisions that have to be taken from out of a specific individual case and considering various factors"
No sh!t Sherlock.

"It is not possible to systematically comply with the premise of minimizing personal injury unless an assessment of the impact of damage to property is attempted and possible resultant personal injury is factored into the behaviour in dilemma situations"
So it's not simple after all.

"As long as the prior programming minimizes the risks to everyone in the same manner, it was also in the interests of those sacrificed before they were identifiable as such in a specific situation"
Some are identifiable as more vulnerable than others before the programming takes place.

"the Ethics Commission refuses to infer from this that the lives of humans can be „offset“ against those of other humans in emergency situations so that it could be permissible to sacrifice one person in order to save several others"

"it would appear reasonable to demand that the course of action to be chosen is that which costs as few human lives as possible"

"Here, the Commission has not yet been able to bring its discussions to a satisfactory end, nor has it been able to reach a consensus"

"It would not be compatible with this guiding principle if we were to impose on an individual, who is established in advance in his role of driver or user of a motor vehicle, obligations of solidarity with others in emergencies, including sacrificing his own life."

" those involved in mobility risks must not sacrifice those who are not involved"

"There is no ethical rule that always places safety before freedom"

"Accountability for driverless systems that are being used for their intended purposes lies with the manufacturer and operator"

What if the manufacturer says "The auto must only be used when the conditions are suitable"?


I think one of the main effects of autonomous cars might be to show the human race what a mucking fuddle they get into when they try to explicitly define ethical values. People can and do live with contradictory values and beliefs, but if computer software is programmed with self-contradictory instructions it'll crash (along with the car that it's controlling).

A friend recently bought a Honda Jazz. Every time she starts the engine she has to remember to turn off the automated 'safetly' assistance that tries to take over the driving and plough her into hedges (rural area). They have had a few near misses. It cannot be adjusted in the software.
If I had a car that did that to me I'd be asking for my money back.
 

craigwend

Grimpeur des terrains plats
At the moment though cars are driven by human brains difference engine computers - which also don't tend to be great at detecting threats and decision making...
 

Drago

Legendary Member
Surely if totally automated cars are going at a sufficiently sensible speed they will have ample time and space for their brains to make a sensible decision for a given situation, and thus avoid dilemmas altogether.

Sadly though I suspect the tech will instead be used to pack them in tighter and make them faster.
 
Boeing, Doors ?

Boeing's door plug problem is not the result of inadequate testing. In fact, the design of them is more than adequate to prevent them coming open in flight.

As I understand it, the bolts intended to prevent the door plug from moving up and out of alignment with the stop tabs which prevent it from opening were missing. And that was the result of the process to resolve a defect with the door seal being short circuited, so that the door bolts were not re-inspected after that defect was resolved.

It would be akin to producing a sotware update, but not deploying it properly. My point really was that the software needs to be designed and tested properly in order to ensure it is safe. And I suspect automated vehicles with software that has been designed and tested properly will out perform human meatware in terms of road safety because, IMHO, humans are in general poor drivers.
 

BoldonLad

Not part of the Elite
Location
South Tyneside
Boeing's door plug problem is not the result of inadequate testing. In fact, the design of them is more than adequate to prevent them coming open in flight.

As I understand it, the bolts intended to prevent the door plug from moving up and out of alignment with the stop tabs which prevent it from opening were missing. And that was the result of the process to resolve a defect with the door seal being short circuited, so that the door bolts were not re-inspected after that defect was resolved.

It would be akin to producing a sotware update, but not deploying it properly. My point really was that the software needs to be designed and tested properly in order to ensure it is safe. And I suspect automated vehicles with software that has been designed and tested properly will out perform human meatware in terms of road safety because, IMHO, humans are in general poor drivers.

Point taken, but, as far as I am concerned, if I am killed/seriously injured by a defective driverless car (or a defective aeroplane), the detail of why it is defective is of little comfort.
 

I like Skol

A Minging Manc...
I've switched off rhe Lane keeping and autonomous braking in my MINI. If I were Mr Magoo with the coordination of Mr Bean then it might be us3ful, but I'm a class 1 dibble driver FFS and I can do far better when I'm left to it.

If my driving deteriorated to the point where these tools were beneficial then I probably shouldn't be behind the wheel anyway.
While I question @Drago 's driving abilities (the same as I doubt everyone, including myself) I do agree that these modern automated driving aids go against everything that driving involves. If you find such systems beneficial (lane assist, distance maintaining cruise control, proximity warning mirrors, etc) then you almost certainly are not driving at a high enough standard and should be finding the assistance intrusive.
Driving requires ability, focus, concentration, awareness, practice and training/revision and if you can't manage these then it is time to stop.
 
To answer some of my own questions:

- Yes, I am very likely to change routes to ones not used by driverless vehicles. This may mean having to use bike paths where sadly I am more likely to get mugged, as ones in my cycling range tend to be away from view/isolated rather than along shared paths to the side of roads.

- I may no longer go to areas where encountering driverless vehicles on route is unavoidable.

- A casual cycling friend has already told me he is likely to stop cycling if fully driverless cars/lorries are allowed in his region, as he perceives them to be more unsafe than human driven ones.

Note: I realise my own views may change depending on how technology develops.

I am also curious about the social impact of:

- possibly all commercial vehicles becoming driver-free in a fairly short time span once it rolls out = vast numbers of people will loose their jobs

- private companies may effectively have much more control / ownership of the roads than the public do.
 
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Might be best asking about the Honda Jazz feature causing the problem in a dedicated forum or group.
A sensible reply, but I doubt the person will make that effort. They have requested Honda to turn it off, or make it so the default is off and she can then turn it on if she wants, but apparently (?) Honda say this is not an available option.
The person I live with looked at buying one of these and is so relieved he did not. Its off my list, along with any other Honda that behaves this way and any other brand that does this.
As for driverless cars in general, it depends how well they are tested and whether manual control is still possible.
The way it seems to be put forward, at least from what I have read, is that during 'tests' a driver has to sit in the control seat so the vehicle can be overriden if the computer creates or responds badly to an 'accident situation', but I get the impression the longer term plan is to dump that and people will sit around in the vehicles (if transporting humans) reading, watching internet, getting some kip etc so by the time they notice a problem and physically get to some override control (if they know how to drive! No mention of someone with a driving licence having to be in any moving vehicle) it will be too late.
 
I do agree that these modern automated driving aids go against everything that driving involves. If you find such systems beneficial (lane assist, distance maintaining cruise control, proximity warning mirrors, etc) then you almost certainly are not driving at a high enough standard and should be finding the assistance intrusive.
Driving requires ability, focus, concentration, awareness, practice and training/revision and if you can't manage these then it is time to stop.

I turn off all the automated headlights, windscreen wipers etc partly because I want things to do when driving, to keep me alert and engaged.

Also some of them are problems - the auto dip headlights when I tried them kept dipping unexpectedly so I would be plunged into a level of darkness on country roads (no backup street lights) which was really dangerous. Even light reflecting from road signs would trigger them to plunge me into gloom. I sometimes drive in areas so dark that on cloudy nights the only visable light for miles is from my car beams, not even stars out, so random changes in headlight output is a real issue. Fortunately its possible to turn the option off in the car I use.

There is a front anti accident assist that warns of sudden braking from vehicles in front. So far its only beeped, usually after I have already moved to brake before it signals an 'issue'. I think it has value but sometimes it triggers when there is nothing in front of the vehicle except empty road, so I would be very concerned if it took full control of braking at every issue rather than doing warning signals.
 
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Sadly though I suspect the tech will instead be used to pack them in tighter and make them faster.
That is another 'benefit' I have already seen pushed in media. The idea is that multi vehicle lorry / commercial convoys can travel really close together, following decisions (braking, turning, suchlike) made by the vehicle at the very front, which should pass the calculations and actions back down the roadtrain, with all the rest obeying. This means fuel will be saved as well as no longer paying drivers, so profits can go up.

I saw this roadtrain concept challenged somewhere (it was some while back, so cant remember but was probably in a newspaper) as it would mean cars and small commercial vehicles might be physically blocked out/dominated by whats good for the multi vehicle commercial roadtrains. The response at the time was that roadtrain length would probabally be limited to X vehicles (number/length was not specified) and they would have to travel with some gap (unspecified) between each roadtrain, to allow other vehicles to enter and leave the road. Also of course people trying to cross A roads etc may find problems, if this concept is not just for motorways - it was not clear.

It sounds like a multi pile up waiting to happen, as it was not clear what response would take place by other vehicles if the first vehicle in the roadtrain was not aware of a problem occurring further back.

Also if there is some possibility of cars and light commercials having to fight for road access etc what hope for cyclists and indeed mopeds or motorcyclists?

Would air currents from mass roadtrain drafting have any additional effect on cyclists, mopeds etc?
 
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lazybloke

Considering a new username
Location
Leafy Surrey
Boeing's door plug problem is not the result of inadequate testing. In fact, the design of them is more than adequate to prevent them coming open in flight.
I strongly disagee; the missing bolts could have been detected had there been better testing.

DO you really think testing was sufficient when it allowed a plane to take to the air with bolts missing from its airframe? The passengers of that plan would suggest not.

As I understand it, the bolts intended to prevent the door plug from moving up and out of alignment with the stop tabs which prevent it from opening were missing. And that was the result of the process to resolve a defect with the door seal being short circuited, so that the door bolts were not re-inspected after that defect was resolved.
A door plug is so called because it plugs the hole in the fuselage and air pressure helps secure it.
The fact it dislodged suggests is wasn't a true plug - a redesign might be beneficial.

It would be akin to producing a sotware update, but not deploying it properly.
Yes! Finally we agree.
I've got a few years experience of deploying software solutions within government departments, but even if I was just sending out a monthly security patch my testing would include (a) functionality of the patch, and (b) a check of the deployment process.

Because testing should never be skimped on, which is why I also plan intregration testing, regression testing, performance testing, security testing, user acceptance testing and then a live pilot prior to the main deployment.

The AI technology of self-driving is amazing, but it still needs comprehensive testing.
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
While I question @Drago 's driving abilities (the same as I doubt everyone, including myself) I do agree that these modern automated driving aids go against everything that driving involves. If you find such systems beneficial (lane assist, distance maintaining cruise control, proximity warning mirrors, etc) then you almost certainly are not driving at a high enough standard and should be finding the assistance intrusive.
Driving requires ability, focus, concentration, awareness, practice and training/revision and if you can't manage these then it is time to stop.

I also have a MINI with lane keeping assist and collision avoidance braking. I don’t switch them off. I am not a police qualified driver but I have received two “perfect” IAM driving assessments from a former police driving instructor, who claimed I was the only person he’d ever given that to. Anyway, I leave the systems on but don’t rely on them. The lane assist occasionally vibrates the steering wheel but when it does it’s not a surprise to me, I am expecting it. I’ve never had the autonomous braking activate.

I consider them as a copilot, not a nanny. One day it might spot something I missed, but so far it has been a background system that has had nothing to actually do. I’m not so arrogant in my driving abilities that I believe I can catch everything forever. If anything did happen and it was found that I had disabled safety features, what then of the legal or insurance consequences?
 

All uphill

Still rolling along
Location
Somerset
I have much more confidence in properly developed and tested electronic devices than I do humans.

Being creative, distracted, tired, emotional and misjudging are all inherent in our humanity, which is why such discipline is needed to safely fly a plane, drive a car or ride a bike.

I wonder if this fear of self driving cars reflects our well documented over estimation of our driving skills?
 
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