E-Scooters - One death and a serious injury this weekend

[Gasman]

More of this in the future?

 

[Dogtrousers]

I was in Munich a month or so ago and saw loads of them and I've read that there were some issues with them during Oktoberfest. However it seems that in Germany your driving licence is linked to scooter offences.

E-scooters cause numerous driving licence losses
The issue of transport deserves special attention in the overall summary. The total number of traffic accidents during the Wiesn fell slightly to 2,338 - 43 of which involved alcohol. However, the e-scooters caused the police a lot of extra work this year, as apparently many users are not aware of the legal regulations. Drunken E-scooter drivers were stopped 414 times and the police withheld 254 driving licences.
Source: https://www.oktoberfest.de/en/magazine/oktoberfest-news/2019/oktoberfest-summary-of-munich-police

By the by, I saw a couple of e-scooters this morning on the roads in suburban London. Pre-dawn (about 0630-0700) but still quite dingy and they were without lights. Sure I could see them OK so they weren't invisible but under those circs I'd be showing lights if on my bike at that time.

 

[Banjo]

Nothing with wheels as small as that could safely negotiate the potholed gravel strewn death traps that count as roads in many parts of the uk.

 

[captain nemo1701]

Got onto the Bristol Railway Path this morning, about 50 yards ahead a bloke on an e-scooter joined the path. Man, even at full tilt I couldn't keep up. He was overtaking guys on road bikes who normally travel quite fast!. I reckon he was on an unrestricted machine, looked like it was doing about 30mph?. I know some of these things are getting more powerful & people are already hacking them to get around any speed restriction.

Then, as I got to the end of the cattle market road path to cross over, another come hurtling past. Both myself & a pedestrian did a double-take at how fast he was going.

I understand that these things, along with e-skateboards and those silly mono wheels are currently not street legal. An expose on SKY Tv several weeks ago secretly filmed a shopkeeper flogging an escooter and said on camera 'Yes, they're just like bicycles you can ride them on the pavement" .

Err..no you can't!.

They're getting faster & more powerful by the day. Given that Amsterdam has now banned 30 mph petrol mopeds from the bike lanes ('Bromfiets') for safety, before these things become a new trend here, about time to ban them from bike lanes/pavements?. Some US cities already have, I understand, because of deaths & often these things burst into flames due to overloading the motor/battery.

We don't allow 30 mph petrol mopeds on cyclepaths, so i don't think 30mph-capable e-machines should be allowed either.

 

[Smudge]

Got onto the Bristol Railway Path this morning, about 50 yards ahead a bloke on an e-scooter joined the path. Man, even at full tilt I couldn't keep up. He was overtaking guys on road bikes who normally travel quite fast!. I reckon he was on an unrestricted machine, looked like it was doing about 30mph?. I know some of these things are getting more powerful & people are already hacking them to get around any speed restriction.

Then, as I got to the end of the cattle market road path to cross over, another come hurtling past. Both myself & a pedestrian did a double-take at how fast he was going.

I understand that these things, along with e-skateboards and those silly mono wheels are currently not street legal. An expose on SKY Tv several weeks ago secretly filmed a shopkeeper flogging an escooter and said on camera 'Yes, they're just like bicycles you can ride them on the pavement" .

Err..no you can't!.

They're getting faster & more powerful by the day. Given that Amsterdam has now banned 30 mph petrol mopeds from the bike lanes ('Bromfiets') for safety, before these things become a new trend here, about time to ban them from bike lanes/pavements?. Some US cities already have, I understand, because of deaths & often these things burst into flames due to overloading the motor/battery.

We don't allow 30 mph petrol mopeds on cyclepaths, so i don't think 30mph-capable e-machines should be allowed either.

They aren't allowed to be there. The only electric vehicles that are allowed to be there are mobility scooters and road legal pedelec ebikes. But until there's a clamp down on them by the authorities, people will carry on using them.
That goes for non road legal powerful ebikes as well.

 

[fossyant]

Can you imagine the dental work when an e-scooter stops at 30mph due to a pot hole, or large 'stone'....

 

[captain nemo1701]

Can you imagine the dental work when an e-scooter stops at 30mph due to a pot hole, or large 'stone'....

Bloke in local shop mentioned to assistant that his e-skateboard did 24 mph. I was one of the original skateboard kids in 1977. Your greatest enemy was a humble bit of grit wedging under the wheels. Imagine it happening is traffic...... The firm I work for sadly lost an ex-staff member who came off her bike due to hitting a pothole & was killed.

 

[DCLane]

Got onto the Bristol Railway Path this morning, about 50 yards ahead a bloke on an e-scooter joined the path. Man, even at full tilt I couldn't keep up. He was overtaking guys on road bikes who normally travel quite fast!. I reckon he was on an unrestricted machine, looked like it was doing about 30mph?. I know some of these things are getting more powerful & people are already hacking them to get around any speed restriction.

Then, as I got to the end of the cattle market road path to cross over, another come hurtling past. Both myself & a pedestrian did a double-take at how fast he was going.

Around 40mph for 2000 watt ones: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NANROBOT...152822?hash=item2cfd3c5db6:g:OlUAAOSwm49dSfg6

I was behind a police car in Leeds yesterday and one of these went past. The police appeared more interested in the ladies on the other side

 

[captain nemo1701]

Around 40mph for 2000 watt ones: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NANROBOT...152822?hash=item2cfd3c5db6:g:OlUAAOSwm49dSfg6

I was behind a police car in Leeds yesterday and one of these went past. The police appeared more interested in the ladies on the other side

This is my main concern over these things (I have a NEBOSH safety certificate). They are too fast & what the cycling community doesn't need is fast motorised traffic on cyclepaths which are for non-motorised transport.

 

[Electric_Andy]

I can't see e-scooters ever being allowed on the public highway. There might be a few niche manufacturers who would make one with lights and brakes, but if you're going to do all that you might as well be on a (much more stable) bicycle. The market for these only exists because they can be made very cheaply because eligibility for road use does not have to be considered.

I still think pedelec bikes should not have a limit on power though. Yes, limited to 15mph. But the current 250W restriction does not allow it to go up any significant gradient at anywhere near 15mph under it's own steam.

 

[mjr]

Would you exclude electric bikes from cycle paths? I'm not trying to start an argument ... just thinking out loud really.

Not as long as the electric bit remains limited to 15mph.

On mixed use cyclepaths all non pedestrians - including slow cyclists like me have to learn to knock the speed on the head. Surfaces normally help to do that. On dedicated use cycle lanes then roller skaters, scooterists, etc raise interesting questions. What's the difference between an electric scooter and an e-bike?

Smaller wheels so more liable to buck the rider but no frame between the legs so easier to jump off?

What do you mean by "dedicated use cycle lanes"? UK pedestrians are allowed to walk everywhere except motorways and a few other roads that cyclists are mostly also banned from.

And even if e-scooters were "banned", let's face it, no one would lift a finger to enforce it.

No idea what the answer is. Hoping that they go away probably won't work

Yay, realpolitik!

 

[Smudge]

With these things being battery powered, people seem to see it as acceptable to ride them anywhere.
Yet if i were to buy a moped and not register, tax, insure it or even have a licence for it. Then openly admit i ride it wherever i please. I would be universally slated for it and it would probably only be a matter of time before i get nicked on it.
I don't see any difference between this illegally ridden moped and leccy scooters and overpowered non road legal ebikes, yet the perception of them is vastly different.

 

[captain nemo1701]

Would you exclude electric bikes from cycle paths? I'm not trying to start an argument ... just thinking out loud really.

On mixed use cyclepaths all non pedestrians - including slow cyclists like me have to learn to knock the speed on the head. Surfaces normally help to do that. On dedicated use cycle lanes then roller skaters, scooterists, etc raise interesting questions. What's the difference between an electric scooter and an e-bike?

And even if e-scooters were "banned", let's face it, no one would lift a finger to enforce it.

No idea what the answer is. Hoping that they go away probably won't work

E-bikes, I understand, are generally for pedal-assist and are limited to about 15mph (?). My point about electric scooters is with advancing tech, when does an e-scooter become an e-motorbike (which are available)?. People hack them for greater speed, which has been going on with mopeds for years. Amsterdam realised that mixing faster motorised traffic with slower bikes wasn't a good idea.

30 mph mopeds (bromfiets for anyone in the Netherlands) are banned from cyclepaths, so why allow a 30 mph scooters on them?. Speed is the issue here, not really power source, fossil fuel or lithium battery. In the future, do we want cyclepaths turning into highways for 30 mph motorised traffic?. Call me old-school, but I would expect cyclepaths were originally intended for non-motorised traffic. Otherwise, why have them?.

 

[mjr]

I don't see any difference between this illegally ridden moped and leccy scooters and overpowered non road legal ebikes, yet the perception of them is vastly different.

Two big differences: firstly and mainly weight (which increases the kinetic energy involved in any collision and thereby the likely harm), and secondly, containing flammable fuel.

I also remember that mopeds were routinely allowed on early roadside cycleways (2-3m wide stuff built as such with parallel footway, not the modern paint and signs rubbish or shared use weaselling) and at least one survived in North Somerset as late as 2008 (but gone now).

 

[Smudge]

Two big differences: firstly and mainly weight (which increases the kinetic energy involved in any collision and thereby the likely harm), and secondly, containing flammable fuel.

I also remember that mopeds were routinely allowed on early roadside cycleways (2-3m wide stuff built as such with parallel footway, not the modern paint and signs rubbish or shared use weaselling) and at least one survived in North Somerset as late as 2008 (but gone now).

I was more talking about how they are perceived legally.
Ride a moped on a cycle path and it would be deemed out of order by everyone, but many people seem to think electric scooters and non road legal ebikes are fair game to be used. In fact people will often openly admit using them. You even get people on various forums asking advice on making road legal ebikes faster or buying an overpowered kit. Some even bragging about it with a maverick attitude.
Electric scooters and over powered ebikes shouldn't be on a cycle path anymore than a moped. Plus the former two aren't legal to be used anywhere apart from private land, at least a moped can be legally used on the road as long as has the rest of the legal requirements.