Engine Displacement.

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fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
Toyota are still doing relatively large engines in their hybrids as they aren't turbo'ed from what I can gather. Most are the 1.5l and a few more punchy 2.0l with nearly 190bhp (with battery assistance).
 
OP
OP
T

Time Waster

Veteran
My experience of engines, petrol 1.6l NA on my escort went well enough until I hit hills like the one up towards the new low/high Newton bypass on the road to Newby Bridge, greenodd, and on. It's steep and the petrol always needed a drop to 4th, or was it 4th top to 3rd? I learnt how to speed up to rush the hill without changing down but not traffic leading in and you're changing down 2 gears.

My next car was a 1.7l tdi astra. Diesel meant it pulled up that hill in top gear. Then seat altea xl 2.0 turbo diesel. That never even noticed that hill. Finally 1.6l vivaro van swb low roof with partial conversion. Diesel, turbo. Always on eco setting so a few ps off the full 115 rating. It struggles on that hill a bit like my old 1.6l petrol na escort. Not surprising but everywhere but hills it's good.

Next car? Not ev as can't afford a good one big enough and new enough for my budget. No I'm not trusting mg brand. So it's likely a petrol, turbo/supercharged engine in a hopefully ncap 5 body SUV or estate shape. Dacia at 1.0 l in a medium sized SUV seems cheap but at that engine displacement I'm kind of put off. I am thinking a modern 1.5 / 1.6l at a push 1,4l might be good enough. I do know any car I get will achieve better than 40mpg on longer runs that my van gets at its best performance.
 
OP
OP
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Time Waster

Veteran
The galaxy is a mondeo with an mpv body shape. Same platform, engine choices and not far off performance. My parents had the titanium x mondeo. Back then it was bought at the same time as they bought a 4 berth caravan. It was the caravan tow car of the year at the time. So your galaxy is a good choice.

One visit when we considered changing the seat xl we were in a local Ford dealer. Before we got the van. The female salesperson was very, very honest. She hated the trend to SUV/MPV body shape. She said that each normal hatch/estate car shape standard had 2 different suv or mpv body shape model variants of the same platform. Usually they were heavier with the same engines, plus the body shape / design usually resulted in a drop of one ncap star rating for safety. She said they had very few used cars that were not the SUV or mpv shape but she would never buy one due to safety reasons. I tend to agree, there's no real benefit of suv over the estate from the same platform which usual comes better kitted and higher safety aids or ncap. Not universal but at the time looking at Ford I found that she was mostly right.
 

mustang1

Legendary Member
Location
London, UK
AIUI from reading around the NA doesn't have turbo lag but the turbochargers these days are better with less lag. Then you've got superchargers too where the power to force the air in comes from the engine not the exhaust flow as in a turbo.

Then you have biturbos like on some vivaro vans. This has a convoluted flow where valves control which way air flows. IIRC it's like a big turbo but the second turbo fills in the gap reducing the turbo lag. So up to 1500revs the second turbo then that cuts out as the bigger main turbo kicks in. So turbo lag is virtually not there.

Whatever the case I've heard the tech has improved such that small engine with modem turbos are closer to larger NA cars indeed larger turbo cars from decade ago too. So to a point smaller engines might well be a good idea, I'm just not sure of the 1.0litre dacia duster SUVs. They seem too big to get away with a 1l displacement.

The best turbos imho are on 911 where they have variable rate blades (maybe other cars have that now as well idk).

Some cars (ahem I'm looking at you VW!) have both a supercharger and a turbo! Oh boy, the complexity!

I still like NA though. :smile:
 
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SpokeyDokey

68, & my GP says I will officially be old at 70!
Moderator
I've seen people complaining that the newer high efficiency engines are difficult and temperamental to drive. I got the impression that they have a very narrow power band that requires a lot of gearstick stirring, but I've never driven anything new so I've no personal experience.

Our tiddly 1 litre 110bhp VW 3 pot pulls strongly from low down and continues well up the rev' range.
 

Drago

Legendary Member
The best turbos imho are on 911 where they have variable rate blades (maybe other cars have that now as well idk).

Some cars (ahem I'm looking at you VW!) have both a supercharger and a turbo! Oh boy, the complexity!

I still like NA though. :smile:

Most cars have VGT turbos these days. It's not the rotating blades that shift, but the vanes that directs the gasses inside housing to the turbine blades. Surprisingly simple in execution.
 

Jameshow

Veteran
Not the world's most knowledgeable about the mechanics, engineering or physics of the ICE, but have had a lot of experience driving loads of different cars and have some other random/useless thoughts on the topic from a lifetime of driving low powered vehicles!

Recently we had a long term hire car, a 1L Dacia Jogger. On the whole in general usage it was smooth, quiet, nippy enough and frugal. Where it lacked was pulling-power up steep hills requiring much stick stirring, and when fully loaded - 4 adults + 2 dogs for example. As we live in deepest Devon, hills are an issue, but you get used to it. When 4 up and there are hills that's more of an issue. Would I consider one? Depends - answer later....

We recently had a 2L Diesel VW Camper which we bought in a moment of madness/love to pull a 1.5 tonne caravan. Test driving the VW along flat roads it seemed pretty zippy considering all the camping gubbins and pop-top roof etc. It was only later on hills we realised that judicious use of gears and revs was required and the fuel consumption fell of a cliff. It was then we realised that whilst 2L it was only 102HP! Pulling the caravan up a long motorway drag was a slow process where we'd regularly be overtaken by trucks. So we were about to get it remapped to 130HP when on a long slow drag uphill drag at night when fully loaded som inattentive idiot hadn't noticed we were doing 50mph on the inside lane rather than 70 and drove into the back of me writing-off our beautiful van in the process :-(. We then looked at a 150HP auto replacement.

Over the years we have had a number of large motorhomes with 110, 130, 150 and 160hp engines and what I've noticed is that you don't seem to notice the power increases as much as you'd expect, part of that is because bigger engines 'tend' engines to be found in bigger heavier vans/Autos AND, even at equal weight, power is very quickly offset by Aerodynamics (which as cyclists we should appreciate).

Most will be familiar with my daily runabout - my 13 year old nearly 100k miles Citroen C1. It surprises people that I regularly travel long distances especially on Motorways with it's little 900cc 3 cylinder engine. I usually travel alone, and the C1 weighs bugger all. It's skinny wheeled and a blob- shaped so fairly aerodynamic. Apart from some very steep hills it powers along well with the beautifully turbine smooth 3 cylinder Toyota engine spinning away. On the motorway on fairly flattish roads it will zoom along at 80mph very happily and give almost 50 mpg. Acceleration off the lights is initially OK but then soon gets left behind, but roll-ons on the motorway over 60mph to 80 when the engines spinning surprises bigger cars!

On the Specifics of 1L Dacia Duster, my thoughts are that unless I was using it as a run-around I'd be a tad wary. We've had 2 Dusters, the first a 1.6 Petrol which couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding and had terrible fuel economy to boot, and the 1.5 Diesel which works perfectly and gives excellent MPG 45 to 50+ in general use Whilst the Duster is fairly light by small SUV standards it has fat trendy tyres and the aerodynamics of a brick and at higher speeds an longer journeys that has an impact. With the Diesels torque however it is very good when loaded-up.

This is a long ramble to make a couple of points.
Whilst big lazy low-stressed engines are fine and long-lived, they are heavy and inefficient as @wafter eloquently explains. Smaller cheaper, lighter, free-spinning low capacity engines are smooth, efficient and on the whole sufficiently powerful for most people and most usages. So it boils down to horses for courses!
Small modern 1L 3Cyl engines are brill for most peoples car-usage with a couple of caveats!
  • If it's mostly one/two people driving i.e not regularly 4 people and 2 dogs or a boot-ful of kiddy crap etc
  • If the base car itself is relatively light
  • If most of your driving is over relatively flatter terrain
  • If most of your driving is Urban/A-roads
  • If the vehicle itself has a reasonable aerodynamic shape and skinnier tyres
  • If you're not regularly driving around with a roof-box/bike racks
  • If you're not a wannabe Carlos Fandango!
Going back to whether I would purchase a 1L Jogger? If we didn't need to pull a caravan, probably yes. Mostly it's 1 person + 2 dogs or 2 person and 2 dogs so not a lot of added weight. We're quite used to low powered vehicles so a bit of stick-stirring and patience is in our elderly DNA. It suited our other needs and would be cheap to buy, insure and run.

In the end we didn't go for the 150HP VW auto camper either, partly because of the recent interest rate hikes, partly because of the stupidly increasing Insurance costs for VW campers and the 150HP while great for pulling the Caravan gave worse day to day fuel economy than our 102HP version. As it was to be Wimpers run-around, that would be a notable extra cost.

In the end we bought a 4 year-old diesel 150HP Auto low mileage Ford Galaxy! Something that wasn't anywhere on our radar! It was just sat there in the dealers when we chanced-by it. After a test-drive we bought it! In this instance with Caravanning future it was simply the right horse for our course. Heavy enough to pull the van, powerful enough to pull the van with a smooth 7 speed auto-box. Not too bad aerodynamically for a big car and for general pootling around 40 to 45 MPG (if I drive it anyhow).

That's a long waffle to state that I think small performance engines are great, BUT depending in what vehicle (weight, shape) and how you intend to use that car (weight, terrain, journey type).

Small is beautiful....

The fuel usage if the 150 TDI auto will be better than the manual 102 TDI as it's always holding the right revs. That's my experience of my t5.1
 

Fab Foodie

hanging-on in quiet desperation ...
Location
Kirton, Devon.
The galaxy is a mondeo with an mpv body shape. Same platform, engine choices and not far off performance. My parents had the titanium x mondeo. Back then it was bought at the same time as they bought a 4 berth caravan. It was the caravan tow car of the year at the time. So your galaxy is a good choice.

One visit when we considered changing the seat xl we were in a local Ford dealer. Before we got the van. The female salesperson was very, very honest. She hated the trend to SUV/MPV body shape. She said that each normal hatch/estate car shape standard had 2 different suv or mpv body shape model variants of the same platform. Usually they were heavier with the same engines, plus the body shape / design usually resulted in a drop of one ncap star rating for safety. She said they had very few used cars that were not the SUV or mpv shape but she would never buy one due to safety reasons. I tend to agree, there's no real benefit of suv over the estate from the same platform which usual comes better kitted and higher safety aids or ncap. Not universal but at the time looking at Ford I found that she was mostly right.

Oh totally agree re SUV vs Estate cars! I hate SUV's, very few of them drive well due to simple physics!
Would have been happy with a Mondeo or Passat estate as well. But Wimpers prefers SUV's for their higher driving position and the Galaxy is Estate-like enough for me and with a very slightly higher diving position than an Estate, the Galaxy suited Wimpers as well. Win-Win!
It tows like a dream too. All seats in the rear fold flat for camping too :-0
We're happy other than I feel like a Grandad and have finally transitioned into my father!
 
OP
OP
T

Time Waster

Veteran
I wonder if the smax might have been a better choice? A sportier mondeo SUV than the galaxy. We tried one and it was a nice drive. Not much difference from the mondeo hatch we drove. That mondeo was a higher power version near the top of the range. Went a bit faster than the smax, but not by much.

The mondeo was a 2.2tdci at 180bhp I think. Not as fast as a scooby I once drove but it felt the second fastest car I drove.
 
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Jameshow

Veteran
Oh totally agree re SUV vs Estate cars! I hate SUV's, very few of them drive well due to simple physics!
Would have been happy with a Mondeo or Passat estate as well. But Wimpers prefers SUV's for their higher driving position and the Galaxy is Estate-like enough for me and with a very slightly higher diving position than an Estate, the Galaxy suited Wimpers as well. Win-Win!
It tows like a dream too. All seats in the rear fold flat for camping too :-0
We're happy other than I feel like a Grandad and have finally transitioned into my father!

Did they sort the power shift auto box on the galaxy is it was a rubbish copy of VW dsg..

Perhaps they went back to a true slush box...?🤔
 

Electric_Andy

Heavy Metal Fan
Location
Plymouth
In Australia we had an old 70s/80s panel van. It was a 3.8L engine and was utterly gutless. It did have a 3 speed manual and would pull away in top gear! But for a 3.8 I was expecting a lot more
 

Jameshow

Veteran
In Australia we had an old 70s/80s panel van. It was a 3.8L engine and was utterly gutless. It did have a 3 speed manual and would pull away in top gear! But for a 3.8 I was expecting a lot more

My mum and dad's rover P6 3.5 had irrc 163bhp exactly the same as my favourite diesel engine the Volvo d5 but half the economy I expect, but twice the experience!!
 

Drago

Legendary Member
My mum and dad's rover P6 3.5 had irrc 163bhp exactly the same as my favourite diesel engine the Volvo d5 but half the economy I expect, but twice the experience!!

P6 V8s (had one myself) for the UK market were 135-141 BHP, depending upon exact spec (the auto had slightly milder cam profile so the cha ges under power werent too aggressive) and year. The motor was upped to 155ish for the introduction of the Leyland era SD1.

In the grand scheme it actually wasn't all that as a performer, but back in '71 when mine was made the average family car did around 50 horses so relatively speaking it probably seemed like it was powered by nuclear fusion.
 
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