English Rugby Union, what needs to come next?

[SteCenturion]

Yeah cos Burgess did so well. As did Andy Farrell........

They are different games. As people have said always contesting the ball is key to Union, in League players have more field space to run into.

You've forgotten Sean Edwards, Jason Robinson & Owen Farrell there Martin.

& I agree, both codes are very different, having played & enjoyed playing both at a good standard.

My preference will always be league, especially as a spectator now my playing days are long behind me.

Edit.

Burgess is quality & will come good soon enough.

 

[martint235]

You've forgotten Sean Edwards, Jason Robinson & Owen Farrell there Martin.

& I agree, both codes are very different, having played & enjoyed playing both at a good standard.

My preference will always be league, especially as a spectator now my playing days are long behind me.

Edit.

Burgess is quality & will come good soon enough.

Owen Farrell didn't exactly make it as a rugby league player and Shaun Edwards didn't play RU at the top level (or any level above schoolboy). So if we look back, England have had two successful players (we'll include Ashton) transition from League to Union. Not great.

 

[SteCenturion]

Owen Farrell didn't exactly make it as a rugby league player and Shaun Edwards didn't play RU at the top level (or any level above schoolboy). So if we look back, England have had two successful players (we'll include Ashton) transition from League to Union. Not great.

Reference to Sean Edwards was as a top level RU coach & elite level RL player, Owen played for one of the most successful amateur RL Clubs in history for Wigan St Patricks.
Burgess will still prove his worth & even if he doesn't get on in RU will be chased by any pro RL Club with money on his return.

I had forgotten about Ashton who has been sensational in both codes, as was Jason Robinson.

So I make that 5 inc Coach S.Edwards just from recent & quite poor memory.

Edit. This for English RL/RU

Lest we forget Sonny Bill Williams & other Kiwis/Aussies.

 

[martint235]

Reference to Sean Edwards was as a top level RU coach & elite level RL player, Owen played for one of the most successful amateur RL Clubs in history for Wigan St Patricks.
Burgess will still prove his worth & even if he doesn't get on in RU will be chased by any pro RL Club with money on his return.

I had forgotten about Ashton who has been sensational in both codes, as was Jason Robinson.

So I make that 5 inc Coach S.Edwards just from recent & quite poor memory.

Owen Farrell didn't play above schoolboy level so you can't count that regardless of who he played for. He was 17 when he had his debut at RU for Saracens.

It's strange how the Southern Hemisphere players seem to be able to play both codes without batting an eyelid. And then there's SBW who chucks in boxing for good measure.

 

[Chromatic]

Owen Farrell didn't play above schoolboy level so you can't count that regardless of who he played for. He was 17 when he had his debut at RU for Saracens.

It's strange how the Southern Hemisphere players seem to be able to play both codes without batting an eyelid. And then there's SBW who chucks in boxing for good measure.

Maybe because they are skilfull, intelligent, thoughful ball players who don't spend too much time in the gym trying to look like this:

 

[nickyboy]

Owen Farrell didn't exactly make it as a rugby league player and Shaun Edwards didn't play RU at the top level (or any level above schoolboy). So if we look back, England have had two successful players (we'll include Ashton) transition from League to Union. Not great.

Rather an indictment of both codes which have largely failed to handle the transition of players from one code to another. In the old days it was the miniscule number of RU players that made it in RL, now the reverse.

Back to my point I made upthread about school-age players slipping through the net, this is magnified when one looks at the players RL produces. There is no meaningful route from playing schoolboy RL to playing professional RU, all the talent goes into professional RL. All along the M62 corridor there are kids playing for comprehensive school RL sides and club sides that can only consider professional RL as an option. It doesn't happen because the professional RU network doesn't extend beyond the traditional County/Region age group sides

Could you imagine an England RU side with Ellery Hanley (the most talented English rugby player I have ever seen) and Shaun Edwards (who captained both England RU and RL U16 sides)?

 

[Aperitif]

Ellery H - what a player. Can I throw Scully into the mix too, for the All-Star RL XV?

 

[SteCenturion]

@nickyboy

I understand what you are saying there.

These days in fact, the pathways from amateur RL to Pro RL are severely reduced, coming from an over reliance on Southern Hemisphere players & a lack of leadership & investment from the RFL.

Locally & very close by I have two RU clubs in Leigh RU & Tyldesley RU & they have been around a long time, yet my first introduction to RU was through the RAF, not school & prior to that Internationals on TV.

The situation in RL land is so bad that Leigh Centurions have withdrawn their Academy team as there was a) too few teams in the Academy Comp/League & b) a lack of meaningful competition.

Leigh were invited by Super League member clubs to compete in their Academy League but have chosen to focus on building for SL first.

All of this means that our juniors have little scope for bridging between amateur & pro.

Looking from the outside in it appears to most RL fans that the difference in professionalism, leadership & investment between the RFU & RFL is the biggest limiting factor for the growth of RL, rather than any lack of raw talent.

I don't know how RU fans feel about pathways & structure in RU land, but you are certainly on the right track with the M62 corridor comment, it is highly unlikely that many schools or colleges in the NW give RU even a seconds thought, maybe Leeds is one example where they run along o.k.

Sale Sharks playing at Salford Red Devils *3rd iteration* doesn't seem to have attracted much commitment towards RU in the Greater Manchester area.

 

[Aperitif]

Maybe because they are skilfull, intelligent, thoughful ball players who don't spend too much time in the gym trying to look like this: View attachment 109092

Haskell played for Stade Francais remember? Once bitten by Guazzini - always bitten by Guazzini...Les Dieux du Stade

 

[mcshroom]

Perhaps if we didn't concentrate the money in the hands of a few Premiership owners and had proper promotion and relegation (and properly tiered funding) between the Premiership and the Championship then there would be more chance for talent to appear from a wider base.

For too long the Big 11 have made it a virtual closed shop, and run off with the lion's share of the money. To the extent that when Rotherham Titans and Brimingham/Solihull actually beat a couple premiership sides in the cup, the premiership sides ran away from the cup and set up their own Anglo-Welsh competition.

 

[uphillstruggler]

Haskell played for Stade Francais remember? Once bitten by Guazzini - always bitten by Guazzini...Les Dieux du Stade

woaah there - no need for that

 

[SteCenturion]

Ellery H - what a player. Can I throw Scully into the mix too, for the All-Star RL XV?

Can I then add these
*I will anyway*

Kevin Sinfield *Leeds*
Wally Lewis *NRL/Wakefield Trinity Schoolgirls*
Allan Langer *NRL*
Sonny Bill Williams *NRL/RU Wallaby*
Greg Inglis *NRL*
Andrew Johns *NRL*
Darren Lockyer *NRL*
Billy Slater *NRL*
Jonathan Thurston *NRL*
Cooper Cronk *NRL*
Chris Radlinski *Pie*
Trent Barrett *Pie/NRL*
Inga Tuigamala *Pie/NRL*
Andy Gregory *Pie*
Martin Offiah *Pie*
James Graham *St Helens/NRL*
Sam Burgess *Leeds/NRL*
Des Drummond *Leigh*
John Woods *Leigh*
Alex Murphy *Leigh*
Neil Turley *Leigh*
Billy Boston *Pie*
Garry Schofield *Leeds*

Jonathan Davies *Widnes/Warrington/NRL/Neath/Wales RU*

 

[martint235]

Growing up in Lancashire, we always played RU at school. As a kid I could never figure out why the game I played when I went to see my Aunt in St Helens was so different to the one I was expected to play at school. I pretty much gave up on RU at school (Catholic all boys school) and didn't play again until Hampstead.

My nomination for the RL all stars has to be Tom Van Vollenhoven. He retired the year I was born but our house was full of Saints programmes going back decades.

 

[SteCenturion]

My nomination for the RL all stars has to be Tom Van Vollenhoven. He retired the year I was born but our house was full of Saints programmes going back decades.

Bit too long ago for me to know about, but I will take your word for it.

 

[Aperitif]

Can I then add these
*I will anyway*

Kevin Sinfield *Leeds*
Wally Lewis *NRL/Wakefield Trinity Schoolgirls*
Allan Langer *NRL*
Sonny Bill Williams *NRL/RU Wallaby*
Greg Inglis *NRL*
Andrew Johns *NRL*
Darren Lockyer *NRL*
Billy Slater *NRL*
Jonathan Thurston *NRL*
Cooper Cronk *NRL*
Chris Radlinski *Pie*
Trent Barrett *Pie/NRL*
Inga Tuigamala *Pie/NRL*
Andy Gregory *Pie*
Martin Offiah *Pie*
James Graham *St Helens/NRL*
Sam Burgess *Leeds/NRL*
Des Drummond *Leigh*
John Woods *Leigh*
Alex Murphy *Leigh*
Neil Turley *Leigh*
Billy Boston *Pie*
Garry Schofield *Leeds*

Jonathan Davies *Widnes/Warrington/NRL/Neath/Wales RU*

OK - the England XIII XV (fookin' Xs) doesn't look good with JT and Locky in it does it? (Or did we discover a grandparent or one?) Offiah stays - if only for his tight shorts...giving rise to the original "Swing low Sweet 'Chariots' " ) No room for Big Mal either? Shame on you! (He would keep the substitute TMOs busy as well as those on the paddock. )