Enigma Etape or Echo ? - Any advice welcome please

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

Hi Paul,

Many thanks indeed for your replies to my post. I've seen some of your replies to other questions - you obviously have a lot of knowledge on the subject and for someone like myself who has not yet been able to even see a titanium bike, due to a lack of dealers in the area who stock these bikes, the information that you posted is very helpful indeed.

Thanks again.

Problem solved, get both

A couple of years ago I sold my thirty year old Gios (which was third hand and slightly too big) and promised myself I would build another bike that I couldn’t really justify but was going to have anyway!

I have been using my Titanium Van Nicholas Yukon which as mentioned earlier I have been impressed with, therefore as I intend to keep this replacement bike for a long time Titanium was again a logical choice. I actually bought it two years ago but couldn’t afford a few of the items I really wanted, I originally fitted cheaper wheels and seat pin for example; two years later I can and it’s finally finished.

Van Nicholas Chinook, Campagnolo Record 10 Speed with Record Red levers (all my other bikes are 10 so didn't want 11), Mavic Ksyrium SSL SL, Black wheels​

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

 

[Bamford]

Hi Paul,

That bike of yours certainly looks very nice.

One thing that always intrigues me about titanium (and bare in mind that I've never seen one) is that it looks very bright silver coloured in some pictures (see below), but then in others (like yours), it looks duller. Is that because yours is a different finish or is it to do with the lighting or photography ?

Maybe Van Nicholas use a duller finish to Enigma ?

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

...One thing that always intrigues me about titanium (and bare in mind that I've never seen one) is that it looks very bright silver coloured in some pictures (see below), but then in others (like yours), it looks duller. Is that because yours is a different finish or is it to do with the lighting or photography ?...

There are indeed a variety of finishes, from Satin to mirror polished.

Sabbath have a good description of the popular types:

"Satin Matt (comes as standard)
A deep understated and slightly textured look to the titanium.

Bright Brush
A semi polished finish which has a slight texture as you can see the 'grain' of the material through the low buff.

Mirror Polish
A polished finish which is so clean you'll be able to see your face in it"

Van Nicholas and Engima use a Bright Brushed finish as standard; I have seen quite a few Enigma bikes and their 'Bright' does indeed seem very slighter 'Brighter' than used by Van Nicholas; often as close as makes little difference in appearance. Many see Titanium as maintenance free so seldom clean the frame and of course this can effect how shiny/bright they appear. I keep both mine clean, GT85 brings them up a treat.

In your case with Enigma they quote:

All enigma Titanium frames come finished bright brushed as standard, but we cancustomize this in many ways. The finish on an Enigma frames is very labour intensive but worth every minute we lavish upon it. Frames are mirror polished after construction and then the brushing begins, all done by hand, no machines used, just the skill of the technician and a scotch brite pad. Hours later and we have the finished article, a deep lustrous finish few other brands can achieve, classy, understated and very resilient.

Custom options include, bead blasting, mirror polishing, etched or mirror polished logos and fully custom designed paint schemes or if you have any ideas we would be pleased to turn those into reality.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

 

[Bamford]

Thanks Paul, that's excellent.

 

[PpPete]

Paul
Just a thought - and a question - relating to those different finishes.
Some years ago I worked for a business that sold Titanium and Ti-3Al-2.5V tubing. We always used to say it should not be polished, because the salt from even minute amounts of sweat on your skin would "etch" a fingerprint into the surface of Ti. Do you notice that effect on these frames or are they treated in some way to prevent that?

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

Paul
Just a thought - and a question - relating to those different finishes.
Some years ago I worked for a business that sold Titanium and Ti-3Al-2.5V tubing. We always used to say it should not be polished, because the salt from even minute amounts of sweat on your skin would "etch" a fingerprint into the surface of Ti. Do you notice that effect on these frames or are they treated in some way to prevent that?

Well both my Van Nicholas are the ‘Bright Brushed’ finish as apposed to polished, it is possible to scratch and tarnish them, although far less than painted frames of course. I have seen plenty of the 'Satin Matt' finish; which seem about the same as mine. To be honest I have seldom seen a 'Mirror Polish' so would not like to say.​

My Yukon especially has been well used, I use GT85 to keep them in good condition, it has been on the back of vans back from tours and has the odd scratch, none that appear to be as a result of sweat mind you and I have done some very sweaty tours! Put into perspective, it still looks immaculate.​

​

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk​

 

[Bamford]

Thanks Paul, for another very helpful reply. You're a legend around these parts and you've helped a lot of people.

 

[P.H]

If you're looking for an all rounder with mudguard clearance, be aware that the Etape uses short reach brakes which limit this. All the other contenders use long reach and have more clearance. There's a new model Planet X Sportive, which I think is now being made by Van Nicholas, it seems to maximise the clearance to use 28mm tyres and mudguards. I have the original Lynskey built version that I'm very happy with.

 

[P.H]

On the question of finish;
Bead blasted - that's the dull finish used on most Sabbath frames, scratches show through as shiny and there's no way I know of to make that blend in again.
A mark on the more common brushed finish can be brushed out with scotchbright pad or fine wire wool. The difference in shiny between makes is down to the grade of pad/wool used. If you mark this finish it's an easy home job to restore it, though if it's a big area you may need to do the whole frame as the oxidisation will make it look different.
It isn't that big a job to re brush a complete frame, even from bead blasted to brushed.

 

[P.H]

However seldom do either type give problems and both perform well, so integrated or not as far as I'm concerned on a current audax bike is fine with me.

Yes, rarely do either give trouble. But what when they do? With an external headset you remove and replace the cups. On an integrated there are no cups, the bearings are running on the frame, in the unlikely event you have a problem, it's a big one. Buying a cheap alu frame I'd have no concern. Buying an expensive frame for life I'd choose external.
Chris King has been accused of being alarmist and exaggerating the problem, still worth a read;
http://chrisking.com/files/pdfs/Int20HeadsetsExplained.pdf

 

[Bamford]

Hi PH,

Thanks, that's a very interesting point that you raise and certainly one to bare in mind when choosing an Enigma.

Enigma seem quite flexible in terms of customisations, so I would imagine that a non-integrated headset could be specified, although this would no doubt add to both the cost and to the lead time of the bike.

 

[PpPete]

Hi PH,

Enigma seem quite flexible in terms of customisations,

Certainly seems that way from their website. They offer a Chris King headset as an option, which must surely be a non-integrated.
Given that they are one of they few truly "made in england" frames I think you got to go talk to them, you are going to put down a grand on just the frame after all?

If you are worried about integrated you could always get Enigma to build you one with a Ti-6Al-4V head tube instead of 3Al-2.5V head tube. It's a slightly harder alloy, and it would proably take a couple of centuries wear on a badly adjusted headset for you to do any serious damage.

When I get the money together for mine, it will be a trip to Corridori for a full pro "fitting" first, then Enigma, then maybe back to Corridori before I finally decide on the frame.... and I'll be refining my equipment level choices along the way in conversations with Paul at Corridori and Jim at Enigma.

TBH it's not going to happen tomorrow.... but I can dream.

In a professional capacity I saw a report that had been commissioned by the German Air Force on the damage tolerance of 3Al-2.5V tubing used in the 4 nation Typhoon (f.k.a. EuroFighter) aircraft. Ok so they are more worried about hydraulic tubes bursting under repeated pressures of 4000 psi but in short, it doesn't matter how much damage you can do it.....don't bother leaving it to your kids in your will.... even your grandkids will struggle to destroy it.

 

[Bamford]

Hi Pete,

Yes, I noticed the Chris King headset option for the Etape and assumed that it must be non-integrated.

I think I'm correct in saying that the standard (non customised) "off the shelf" frames like the Etape are mad in Taiwan.

 

[PpPete]

AFAIK all the standard ones and some of the customised ones are made either in R.O.C. or P.R.C - except Enigma, who I believe brought all their frame making back to UK about a year ago.

 

[Bamford]

Hi Pete,

Thanks, I didn't realise that Enigma now make all of their frames in the UK.

That's good to know.