First time indexing gears....

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Cyclopathic

Veteran
Location
Leicester.
Got to admit as I don't have a workstand doing it upside down took a bit of experimenting but I figured I had to learn at some point. I once tried learning how to true a wheel but that didn't work out well. Think I'd have to do a proper course for that one before I attempt it again.

Get a work stand. There are some reasonably priced ones around (The lidl one is good for the money I hear, if you can get one) and you won't regret it. Makes a huge difference to pretty much any job on a bike and saves a lot of back ache.
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
After trying and failing several times to index gears, I read on here a suggestion to index by eye - just make sure that the mech is vertically below the relevant cog. It works very well.


Indeed. It is so simple and obvious, that it is surprising why so few guide if any suggests it. It is also useful for spotting problems - if something is wrong within the system (e.g. bent hanger, wrong cable attachment on mech, worn shifter etc.) it will likely manifest itself by the mech being able to line up perfectly under one sprocket but not another.
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
Dumb question if I may. I have an old 5-speed block (Shimano SIS), an old Shimano 105 5/6 speed rear mech, and Sachs Huret Rival Aris 6 downtube levers. I always thought that the indexing was driven by the levers. I.e. the mech itself is free moving rather than jumping a certain distance each change, and that it is the single click in the lever that moves the mech a defined distance and thus changes the gear precisely.

Is that correct?

If it is, then I can pretty much change the mech with anything suitable for the thicker chain width of a 5 or 6 speed block so long as the levers still work,

Is that correct?

Or am I being a total bike-numpty.....


You are half correct, in that nearly all if not all systems have the indexing click implemented at the shifter.

However, that is not to say you can pretty much use any mech. The simple reason is each click at the shifter pulls a certain set amount of cable, while the rear mech (or for that matter a front mech for an indexed front system) has to translate that precise amount of cable pull to traversing the distance of exactly one sprocket up or down. Obviously that translation is determined by the design and geometries of the mech. So for instance all Shimano SIS rear mechs, which include nearly all Shimano rear mechs made since the mid 80's, are interchangeable in terms of cable pull translation standard (i.e. for the same cable pull they all traverse along the sprockets by exactly the same distance irrespective of its vintage or "speed"), so can index correctly, within reason regarding chain/pulley width tolerance etc., with all Shimano rear shifters made during the same period. This "standard" was only recently abandoned by Shimano when they implemented their DynaSys 10 speed system for their mtb equipment.

So going back to your suggestion, according to Velobase it appears your Sachs Huret Rival Aris 6 shifter is not Shimano SIS compatible, i.e. the amount of cable pulled each click is not the same as e.g. what a Shimano 6 (or 5, since it would be the same) speed shifter would deliver.

That however is not necessarily the end of the road for that shifter. It should not be too difficult to find out exactly how much cable your Sachs Huret shifter pulls per click, and compare that with those in the tables here, and see if it is close to any. Even if it isn't, and if you are interested and have the inclination, there is also a small chance that you might be able to work out, in combination with the mechs' ratios, if it will work with certain mech to offer just the right traverse for a certain rear cluster. Or perhaps it can be set or converted to a friction shift.

Hope it helps.
 

JabeSmith

Member
Location
Portsmouth
So going back to your suggestion, according to Velobase it appears your Sachs Huret Rival Aris 6 shifter is not Shimano SIS compatible, i.e. the amount of cable pulled each click is not the same as e.g. what a Shimano 6 (or 5, since it would be the same) speed shifter would deliver.

That's interesting - I always got a totally clean shift with the Sachs Huret Rival Aris 6, a Shimano SIS 5-speed block, and Shimano 105 rear mech. Never had cog noise, never had trouble shifting up or down. I'll read the other articles closely though - very helpful input.
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
That's interesting - I always got a totally clean shift with the Sachs Huret Rival Aris 6, a Shimano SIS 5-speed block, and Shimano 105 rear mech. Never had cog noise, never had trouble shifting up or down. I'll read the other articles closely though - very helpful input.


Well it is always possible that the Velobase compatibility chart is incomplete. The proof of the pudding etc.

If you can see the mech lining up reasonably well below the first gear all the way to the 5th gear, then I don't see why you shouldn't be able to swap your 105 rear mech with most other Shimano rear mechs as discussed.
 

Shut Up Legs

Down Under Member
Same here! :smile: I replaced both shifter cables and adjusted the derailleurs last weekend for the 1st time ever, and it is very satisfying to know you no longer depend on others to do it, isn't it? The gear shifting on that bike has been smooth all week. I don't know how much cable stretch the shifter cables have, but it's possible we'll both have to do a follow-up adjustment in a few weeks?

It really depends on the cable. Something you can do to in a way accelerate any breaking in is to give the gear cables a decent tug where they go along the bottom of your frame.

You'll quickly realise if things arn't working the best as you'll be "missing" gears.
Now, more than 3 weeks later, the gears still need no follow-up adjustment, so I'm happy with that :smile:.
 

gwhite

Über Member
Well it is always possible that the Velobase compatibility chart is incomplete. The proof of the pudding etc.

If you can see the mech lining up reasonably well below the first gear all the way to the 5th gear, then I don't see why you shouldn't be able to swap your 105 rear mech with most other Shimano rear mechs as discussed.


Sometimes nice things just happen. There I was explaining to a guy who had bought a Shimano-hubbed wheel for his Campag gear levers that these were incompatible due to the different cable pull required and found that after a tweak the gears worked perfectly.
Found my coat and left.
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
Sometimes nice things just happen. There I was explaining to a guy who had bought a Shimano-hubbed wheel for his Campag gear levers that these were incompatible due to the different cable pull required and found that after a tweak the gears worked perfectly.
Found my coat and left.


Yeah. Looking at the first table here Shimano 8/Campag 8, Shimano 9/Campag 9, Shimano 10/Campag 10, Shimano 10/Campag 11 and Shimano 7/Shimano 8 all have sprocket pitch difference of 0.2mm or less. By setting cable tension to center mech with middle sprocket, having floating top pulley etc., it is indeed possible to make them all work... until the cable has stretched a bit...
 

TheDoctor

Europe Endless
Moderator
Location
The TerrorVortex
Another problem of making nominally incompatible set-ups work is that there's different values of 'work'.
Does a bit of chain chatter mean it isn't working? Depends on your viewpoint...
 

gwhite

Über Member
Another problem of making nominally incompatible set-ups work is that there's different values of 'work'.
Does a bit of chain chatter mean it isn't working? Depends on your viewpoint...

Well it would with me. Any unwanted noise from the gears or from any other part of the bike and I'm driven to find the cause. Life would be easier were it otherwise.
 

Shut Up Legs

Down Under Member
Well it would with me. Any unwanted noise from the gears or from any other part of the bike and I'm driven to find the cause. Life would be easier were it otherwise.
Same here :smile:. A silent bike is the best one, which is why I just readjusted my derailleurs:

As part of my weekly commuter bike cleaning, I just did my 2nd full rear and front derailleur adjustment. The rear barely needed touching, but the front needed work. The chain was rubbing against the FD plate when on the large ring, and the FD barrel adjuster was tightened to maximum. So my big plan was to (a) loosen the barrel adjuster (thus allowing me to use it later on for minor cable tension adjustments), (b) re-clamp the FD cable a wee bit tighter and then (b) adjust the limit screws. This turned out to be very frustrating! :angry: I almost ruined the FD cable (again), but managed to avoid having to put another one on. I guess I shouldn't expect it to go perfectly, given that this is only the 2nd time I've adjusted the derailleurs, as only about 4 weeks ago I replaced the FD and RD cables and did my first ever FD and RD adjustment. Anyway, there's no more chain rubbing, and the shifting is as smooth as I can get it for front and rear :smile: .
 
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