Flashing front bike lights

[Boris Bajic]

If my strobing were the greatest thoughtlessness I dished out on a given day I'd considered it a small moral victory.

I don't buy the dazzling bit hence my tinkers cuss is not available as a free gift.

EDIT: I'm a SAAB man myself, owned more of them than anything. Most fun I've ever had on a bike was on a Sunn. The next day I fell off a mountain on it.

I apologise. I may have read more into your tinker's cuss than was appropriate.

When I was a very small boy, my father took me to visit a former mentor of his, a German economist whose work in Kiel was "brought to an end by political changes in 1933". He'd come eventually to the UK and this (decades later) was my first visit to his home. In the drive was a pale blue SAAB 96 (the 2-stroke model). I'd never seen a SAAB and sort of squawked the name out in joy. My father (in his Vauxhall) murmered "A connoisseur's car".

Since that day, whenever someone says 'connoisseur' I picture a pale blue SAAB 96. I think it was (at that age) the most perfect thing I'd seen.

I do not picture a Vauxhall cavalier with Swedish badges on it. Insincere apologies (as usual) for being wildly OT.

 

[VamP]

I apologise. I may have read more into your tinker's cuss than was appropriate.

When I was a very small boy, my father took me to visit a former mentor of his, a German economist whose work in Kiel was "brought to an end by political changes in 1933". He'd come eventually to the UK and this (decades later) was my first visit to his home. In the drive was a pale blue SAAB 96 (the 2-stroke model). I'd never seen a SAAB and sort of squawked the name out in joy. My father (in his Vauxhall) murmered "A connoisseur's car".

Since that day, whenever someone says 'connoisseur' I picture a pale blue SAAB 96. I think it was (at that age) the most perfect thing I'd seen.

I do not picture a Vauxhall cavalier with Swedish badges on it. Insincere apologies (as usual) for being wildly OT.

Particularly ironic and sad then, that SAABs today are basically rebadged GM models isn't it

 

[Drago]

Erm, that's a vast over simplification. SAABs engineers were told by their GM paymasters to base their new models on GM products. Alas, they were never very good at doing what they were told and apart from the power trains SAABs bore virtually no relation to the GM starting point by the time they'd finish. This is ultimately what killed the firm, spending vast amounts developing new products instead of simply re-clothing GM products like they'd been told to.

 

[Boris Bajic]

Particularly ironic and sad then, that SAABs today are basically rebadged GM models isn't it

I am not a motor-industry insider, but I believe SAAB is now a was rather than an is in terms of car manufacture. It may be an is in the yet-to-come, but not an independent is. Even the last 'proper' SAAB, the 9000, was a Fiat Croma. The wonderful V4-engined 95 and 96 (jolie-laide defined) had a Ford motor.

My bottom line above was a reference to the GM thing, which was odd rather than sad. I think the irony (if there was one) was that the designer set who'd become the SAAB customer base seemed blithely unaware and bought the badge and the glued-on quirkiness for years after the real article had been sublimated and sucked out by the GM furnace.

I loved the older SAABs, but I'm not sure there's any irony here. SAAB had the perfect profile not to survive the 1990s auto industry as an independent manufacturer... and they didn't survive... No irony.

Soichiro Honda is quoted as saying many years ago that in fifty years there would be five car makers in the world - and that one of them would be Morgan. I may have got the numbers wrong, but that was his sentiment and he seems to have been a clever chappy.

My real concern (I mean real) is that after Citroen started putting self-cancelling indicators in their cars, the same thing happened to them that later happened to SAAB. The XM, of course, was an exception and fought a brave rear-guard against the Kia-isation of the world auto industry.

Did I digress again? Bugger!

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Erm, that's a vast over simplification. SAABs engineers were told by their GM paymasters to base their new models on GM products. Alas, they were never very good at doing what they were told and apart from the power trains SAABs bore virtually no relation to the GM starting point by the time they'd finish. This is ultimately what killed the firm, spending vast amounts developing new products instead of simply re-clothing GM products like they'd been told to.

Thank you Drago. I do wish people didn't take all their learning about cars from Clarkson et el.

A couple of minor points in correction though. The NG900 series cars were based on the Opel Vectra platform (bulkhead cracks anyone?) but SAAB did a lot to improve the suspension and the straight four engines in 2.0 and 2.3 are pure SAAB. The V's are bog standard GM fodder.

The GM cars only suffered becuase the 'classic' 900, which was on its last legs when GM took over, had such an iconic status and was such a revolutionary car on introduction. Sure when the GM influence bit it bit hard and diluted the technology led design SAAB was famous for BUT people weren't buying the cars and the company wasn't making the profits it needed.

As for the 9000 series cars on the Type Four platform - you may as well say they are bedge engineered Fiats and Lancias.

Contrary to popular mythology the build quality went UP under GM

 

[wiggydiggy]

From flashing cyclists to an accurate dissection of the death of Saab - I love CC on a friday

Ps I always like the old 900 Turbo Converatable, ugly flattened duck beak it is!

 

[Drago]

The Vectra platform was only used as the starting point on the NG900. While they are structurally still quite similar the wheelbase is different, suspension pick up points are located differently, door hinges use a different position in 3D space etc, so the time SAAB had finished it was a new platform entirely, in no way compatible with cousin Vectra.

The Type 4 was an early foray into platform, or at least substructure, sharing. SAAB 9000, Alfa 164, Fiat Croma and Lancia Thema if memory serves. All credit to SAAB for making the 9000 the only one that enjoyed significant commercial success. The SAAB purists forget that SAABs engine origins gave never been that pure, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

If I were buying a car and were in the market or a second hand one I'd be quite happy to have a GM era model. Decent GM engines with very nice SAAB body structures and systems is a combination I could live with. Hell, people forget that the 99 and 900 were powered by a motor developed very successfully from the Triumph 1750 unit. Apart from the early 2 stroke cars SAAB have always used someone else's engines, or developed their own version of someone else's engines, and we're doing so for 3 decades before GM came along.

I'm in total agreement with you about Clarksons and the (sometimes very entertaining) drivel he spouts. Morgan's with a "wooden chassis" anyone? How about a steel chassis with a wooden frame supporting the body Jeremy?

 

[VamP]

Wow, there has to be some serious funnage to be had in SAAB geek baiting. We should get the CAD mob over here.

 

[VamP]

The Vectra platform was only used as the starting point on the NG900. While they are structurally still quite similar the wheelbase is different, suspension pick up points are located differently, door hinges use a different position in 3D space etc, so the time SAAB had finished it was a new platform entirely, in no way compatible with cousin Vectra.

Still drove like a dog though didn't it.

 

[Drago]

The Saloons drove OK, the convertibles rather less so.

The biggest issue was shovelling in more power than the FWD chassis can exploit and deliver, but SEAT, VW, Skoda, Audi, Vauxhall, Ford, Renault and a fistful of others have all been guilty of that over the last decade or so.

 

[VamP]

I've driven a 400bhp FWD Alfa that was coping just fine. I really don't think it was the power of the SAAB I drove that made it feel all wooden, and unplanted. Much like the Vectra I hasten to add.

 

[defy-one]

Wheels driving the car and steering - YUK!
Give me a balanced rear wheel drive anyday

 

[GrasB]

For road driving a FWD car should be able to deal with 400bhp without any problems. However when pushing to the limits of grip 200bhp into the front wheels of a car weighing 1.25tonn is going to be a real issue with road tyres. Slicks & a rev-happy engine may get you to around 350bhp maybe more but in term of dynamics you're really pushing the limits of what grip you have avalible on the front wheels.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Still drove like a dog though didn't it.

Not with a 2.3 in it it didn't.

(Sorry.... doesn't)

 

[VamP]

For road driving a FWD car should be able to deal with 400bhp without any problems. However when pushing to the limits of grip 200bhp into the front wheels of a car weighing 1.25tonn is going to be a real issue with road tyres. Slicks & a rev-happy engine may get you to around 350bhp maybe more but in term of dynamics you're really pushing the limits of what grip you have avalible on the front wheels.

With a good mechanical limited slip differential, and well sorted suspension even on road tyres the Alfa was totally awesome. This is race track driving I am talking about not road. Proper on the limit stuff. Barely a hint of torque steer and utterly predictable. Lift off oversteer at the drop of a hat. Comparable performance to M3 CSL, with semi slicks on.

Mind you, the owner had spent over £40k to get his Alfa to the level of the CSL. On top of the purchase price.


I agree that RWD is better, but people parrot the old power and steering formula without actually understanding how much impact a differential has.

*wonders how much longer we can get away with the blatant OT *