Flat pedal moment

[Davidc]

Interesting site here - from Speedplay pedal museum My link History of clips and straps AND cleats - made from leather, metal and plastic. I used alloy ones, which were nailed to the sole using short tacks. I still have a pair of shoes with the ridged soles - in fact a number of parallel ridges to allow for different foot placement. These date from the mid 90s, and I use them now on the spinning bikes at the gym.

I wouldn't disagree that cleats and their pedal attachments were around by the 90s. They were beginning to appear with some riders when I stopped doing TT and training around the mid 80s when my family were growing and taking my time away from cycling. I've had a quick look at your link, and saw some of the bolt-on ones which were around then. They fitted on the then current varieties of pedals, but the cleats needed shoes to be drilled to fit them. They'd been around for quite a few years by then. The early add-on cleats were lethal, they often jammed tight.

What I certainly never saw was anyone attempting to use toe clips and cleats simultaneously. I'd be intruiged to know how you'd do the twisting and lifting action for cleats while your foot was held firmly by clips and straps.

Back in those dark and distant days (early and mid 80s) the fastest riders I came across were certainly still using toe clips, and by then cycling shoes as you describe, with multiple ridges which also had rubber soles and didn't slide everywhere. I had a cheap pair with ridged soles all the way from the toe to insole. I gave my 1960s second hand and well worn Campagnolo leather shoes to a museum, but keep the memory of often falling over getting off the bike and/or walking to the loo. Those did only have one built in ridge, if you wanted more you could either get one put on at a shoe shop or fit a little metal thing to your pedal which adjusted to meet the one provided

I'll look with interest in more detail at your link later, I'll probably find all the pedally bits I've ever used.

I have a lnk to a picture of the 1960s campagnolo shoes but it doesn't want to work. I'll try and find the piccy and and get a current link

 

[youngoldbloke]

Perhaps some confusion here between Cleats and Shoe-Plates. Both names were used for the nail-on slotted plates used with toe clips and straps. If you scroll through the history of clips and straps there are a number of examples. (I am not referring to the (im)possible use of 'clipless' cleats with clips - I've never heard of this either). I was using nail on 'cleats' in the mid sixties. Most platform pedals had a raised rear edge that engaged with the slot (I used Lyotard platforms). So you had to loosen the strap to allow you to engage/disengage the cleat (shoeplate). The ridge in the sole of the shoe performed the same function as the cleat, albeit less positively. Admittedly you would not have been using shoeplates/cleats if you weren't a 'serious' cyclist!

 

[Davidc]

I'm prepared to accept that some, including you, may have fitted add ons to shoes which stopped your feet coming out from correctly adjusted clips and straps. It wasn't however the normal way of things. The two pros who I came across in the late 60s both used Campagnolo shoes, no other option for them, and always had their straps set up as I described above. They also had to use Campy pedals and clips.

Back in the 60s the kit used by pro riders was determined not by what they fancied using but by what their sponsors wanted used, or so they said. I have often wondered to what extent that has determined the development of cycle equipment, because I don't doubt that the same has applied since then. That kit would include not only clipless pedals but most of the rest of what we see on competitive cyclist's bikes. Anything which was detrimental would die out as no sponsor wants losers, but if something's neutral or marginal to performance but makes money for it's maker then who knows?

One way or another the type of kit used in competition trickles down, eventually to the BSO market, so there's a lot of money and many vested interests involved.

 

[potsy]

I was having terrible trouble clipping in today, every time I got to a set of lights my feet came off the pedal no problem but no matter how hard I pressed/twisted/stamped my foot the damn thing would just keep sliding off, absolutely no benefit whatsoever

Oh well I'll see how it goes tomorrow, don't like driving in 2 days running

PP.

 

[youngoldbloke]

I'm prepared to accept that some, including you, may have fitted add ons to shoes which stopped your feet coming out from correctly adjusted clips and straps. It wasn't however the normal way of things. The two pros who I came across in the late 60s both used Campagnolo shoes, no other option for them, and always had their straps set up as I described above. They also had to use Campy pedals and clips.

Back in the 60s the kit used by pro riders was determined not by what they fancied using but by what their sponsors wanted used, or so they said. I have often wondered to what extent that has determined the development of cycle equipment, because I don't doubt that the same has applied since then. That kit would include not only clipless pedals but most of the rest of what we see on competitive cyclist's bikes. Anything which was detrimental would die out as no sponsor wants losers, but if something's neutral or marginal to performance but makes money for it's maker then who knows?

One way or another the type of kit used in competition trickles down, eventually to the BSO market, so there's a lot of money and many vested interests involved.

We ALL used them! Lyotard platforms, Mafac brakes, Campag Gran Sport were the kit to use. By the club rider anyway. I wasn't a pro, but of course we tried to copy their kit and equipment! You wore your new, smooth, leather soled shoes until the raised ege of the pedal made a mark on the sole that you then used to position the slot of the plate before nailing it in position. If they were so abnormal how come a certain J Anquetil was putting his name to them in the early 70s? shoeplates

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

is it still serious in here?.......

oh dear it is....i'm off.....

 

[Dan B]

nope, I see rational responses on all other bike parts, generally along the lines of this is what you get, this is the payoff and the ultimate choice is yours. But suggest larger tyres or flat pedals and you get a whole load of old tosh washed down with a gallon of coolade.

Honestly, I think your confirmation bias is showing. There's plenty of balanced comments along with the clipless fanaticism: there's plenty of fanaticism along with the balanced comments on any other topic. Go on, start a thread about frame materials.

 

[BrumJim]

For the ultimate belt and braces, why not bolt your shoes to the pedals. Be sure and use high tensile steel bolts of at least 1/2" diameter for added strength and security. Oh, and use castellated nuts and split pins just to make sure they don't come loose.

Not on my watch you don't. Bent beam/Philidas type or nothing. And make sure that you torque to 80% yield with a calibrated wrench, and witness mark. I'll be coming round to do an audit to check.

 

[tyred]

I've just had a fantastic idea. I'm going to see my GP to see if it's possible to drill a hole through my foot and bolt my complete foot down to the pedal. Surely, that would be the ultimate in foot retention systems?

 

[Davidc]

We ALL used them! Lyotard platforms, Mafac brakes, Campag Gran Sport were the kit to use. By the club rider anyway. I wasn't a pro, but of course we tried to copy their kit and equipment! You wore your new, smooth, leather soled shoes until the raised ege of the pedal made a mark on the sole that you then used to position the slot of the plate before nailing it in position. If they were so abnormal how come a certain J Anquetil was putting his name to them in the early 70s? shoeplates

In the club scene I was in, which moved 3 times, various devices were used, but it was always possible to correctly set up clip and strap while using any location device. Those who wanted to were, by the mid 70s, experimenting with what we now call clipless.

My ever meeting with any pros ceased in 1970, so I don't know what they were doing with pedals after that. I don't know when the pros moved over to click (clipless) pedals.

If you couldn't slide your feet out of the clips backwards you weren't setting your straps and clips up properly, same goes for any of your clubmates. You should feel resistance on putting a foot in, and have to yank fairly hard to get it out, but you shouldn't normally need to readjust the straps during a ride.

 

[threebikesmcginty]

I've just had a fantastic idea. I'm going to see my GP to see if it's possible to drill a hole through my foot and bolt my complete foot down to the pedal. Surely, that would be the ultimate in foot retention systems?

I'm a doctor* and I reckon that'll be fine, don't use the hammer-drill setting though. I would suggest a dog tooth washer between foot and pedal to stop any twisting.




*well I would be if I'd been to medical school and all that malarkey.

 

[MacB]

Honestly, I think your confirmation bias is showing. There's plenty of balanced comments along with the clipless fanaticism: there's plenty of fanaticism along with the balanced comments on any other topic. Go on, start a thread about frame materials.

and I honestly believe that you honestly believe that, and I'm fine with that......but I also genuinely believe that there is a lack of balance when it comes to talking about clipless pedal systems...though maybe not so much on CycleChat at the moment I don't believe I'm close minded on the subject, I freely accept that there are benefits. I've also tried some and don't rule out using them again, if I feel the need arises, at some point in the future. In the same way I don't rule out skinnier tyres, I merely base my selection on what meets my current needs.

But I have to agree there's something that rankles, you may call it confirmation bias, I don't see it that way....no surprise there then. It's hard to put my finger on exactly what rankles and I suspect it's more an accumulation of little things. Pick any clipless thread on the net and you'll see the same sort of comments from the advocates. To the cynic in me it reads more like marketing blurb than a balanced analysis, almost as if these threads get populated by spam bots. If I do have confirmation bias then that's it in action, reading between the lines to support it. But I get an overwhelming sense of, regardless of a cyclists specific needs, they're better off with clipless. I think that message is wrong and poorly delivered, not by everyone, I've seen some excellent summations from clipless users. They are just greatly outweighed by the gung ho brigade....IMESHO

Oh, and the concept of falling off being funny will always strike a wrong note with me, I can't help that.

 

[youngoldbloke]

Quote from the pedal history Timeline: "4/1895 Charles Hanson of Peace Dale, Rhode Island invents first clipless pedal. (Twist to lock and unlock. Has rotational float.)." 116 years ago - and I expect there have been arguments between the pro and anti camps ever since. However it is interesting that cyclists have felt the need to attach their feet to their pedals more securely since at least 1868 - "Clement Ader bike features primitive toe clip." - not long after the invention of pedals themselves, according to the website. Clipless are not a new innovation, just another way of making pedalling more efficient that had to wait until the 1980s for the technology to be freely available - Hinault winning the 1985 Tour on Look clipless pedals.
(and I expect the discussion of their merits, or otherwise, will continue ....)

 

[threebikesmcginty]

This morning when I was wheeling my bike from the back of the house to the lane the serated edge on the flat pedal caught the knobbly bit on my ankle and it hurt.

 

[youngoldbloke]

This morning when I was wheeling my bike from the back of the house to the lane the serated edge on the flat pedal caught the knobbly bit on my ankle and it hurt.

- you need one of these.