Front rack and panniers

[Crankarm]

thanks both,

Willem- i bought the 56s because i am using them travelling to and from uni and home, so bring laptop and books and clothes etc. I want some for the front because of the stability issues people seem to be raising, i'm a newcomer to the world of cycling really but it seems to make sense to have weight on the front. Then I think if i don't use all of the space it's not a problem?

I will be touring europe for a couple of months this summer, so wont be anything too ridiculous. To me though 34 alone sounds abit on the slim side, I don't want to be scrimping too much, planning on stealth camping and cooking my food and what not. But as I said i'm a newbie so all advice is greatlfully received!

Welcome.
Should have been more specific. My first panniers were the Front Altura Orkneys 34 litres total I think for the pair, in black, which I bought in the mid 1990s. They are still going fine. Oh one of the zips on the side pocket has broken but they can be replaced and I broke one of the buckles to secure the lid. Not a weakness, purely my fault. The fabric is still pretty new looking though and good. It hasn't faded or worn through anywhere despite regular use until last year when I bought Vaude Aqua roll tops, totally waterproof. The only thing I didn't like with the Orkneys was that they weren't fully waterproof having to put on a seperate rain cover when it really chucked it down. Having side that they never let water in despite using them everyday for many years in some pretty heavy deluges. I like them as they allow you to carry just enough but not too much. I did use them on the rear rack but they work just as well if not better on the front. They are the smaller front panniers after all.

The Rixen and Kaul fittings are adjustable using a Phillips screw driver and IMHO are far better than the ones used by other manufacturers as you don't need spacers if you put them on a different sized diameter rack. Just re-adjust them. It only takes 2 minutes. AFAIK they will go on Tubus racks which have 10 or 11m diameter tubing. The Blackburn racks which I use on my bikes and 'am stuck with are 8mm. I like all my racks to be the same diameter tubing otherwise you spend all your time faffing around fitting or removing spacers and taking care not to lose the fiddly buggers which both Ortlieb and Vaude use for their pannier hooks.

I find it is better not to have all the weight on the back of the bike as it makes it feel very cumbersome and lethargic even more so than spreading the weight between front and back. Not to mention the extra strain on your rear wheel with all that weight including you.

So if you got the old style Orkneys cheap you got a good deal as they are good panniers. Well made and robust. Nice looking and decent pockets. How much btw?

 

[Ricd11]

They are on ebay at the moment: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Altura-Orkney..._Cycling_Bags_Panniers_SR?hash=item2eaa32bdb9

obviously someone might bid a lot for them before the end, but i'd probably go for 30-35 quid something like that? A lot cheaper than buying brand new anyway and i have the new dryline 56s. As your panniers are older now, is that the reason for the raincovers? I thought the orkneys were fully waterproof, found no mention of raincovers :s

About Blackburn, my ridgeback voyage came with a blackburn rack, and the drylines fit it perfectly without any modification (which i'm pretty glad is the case now)

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Tony]

Have ridden with the same Blackburn pair on my Galaxy for a decade and a half....and no real problems. Low riders, of course.
If mounting the rack and mudguards to the same bolt, make sure the mudguard fitting is on the outside of the rack, so that the rack is flush to the fork to avoid shearing the bolt.

 

[ufkacbln]

Lets get back to basics.

There are two types of front rack. This is because of the need to prevent the rack twieting in under load.

Some have a stabilising bar such as the Tara:

The alternative is to use the paired braze-ons to perform this task and dispense with the bar. The Blackburn Custom is an example:

However there is a further problem. The converging rods mean that some panniers clips willnot fit between the rods at the front or over both rods. This can limit pannier choice.

If you do go down this route then there are a number of panniers such as the Thorn that equally space these rods and allow any pannier:

 

[Ricd11]

Thanks guys,

I struggled to see the converging bars at first but now I get it, does look like it become a problem

 

[willem]

These racks for through bolts are a good idea if you really need front panniers, and the Tubus Duo is another one of this kind, and a very good one- I love mine as it really is very stiff. No problems fitting panniers so far.
As for the actual need for front panniers, I don't think there is one on such trips in Europe. I am planning a trip to Norway this summer, and I have to be prepared for wet and cold weather (below freezing at times). I will cook my own meals as well, but my planned luggage weight is about 14 kilo. I will use two Ortlieb rear panniers with a volume of 40 litres, and I will have the tent on the top of the rack. I will use a medium sized bar bag for my purse, phone, emergency blanket etc. That's all. The Tubus Duo will stay home.
Even empty front panniers and a front rack weigh some 2-2.5 kilo, and may cost something like 150 pounds. I think it is much smarter to use that money to lighten your load. As long as you do not overload the rear of your bike there should not be any stability issues.
Willem

 

[Ricd11]

In my mind i'm thinking that i should have stuff on the front even if it means i only half fill the rear panniers, so the weight is evened out. I can't say this is the way to do it, but it seems reasonable to me. Maybe I'm abit scared of the balance on steep climbs and the possibilty of knackering spokes. I also agree that I shouldn't be taking lots of stuff i don't use, so i'm going to do a few weekenders when the weathers abit better. I do want to be comfortable though as I'll be doing abit of sightseeing around some of the big cities as well. I guess the best thing is to get out and have a go and see. I did find dhb Marsden Front Panniers though which are about 10L each and are very reasonably priced at £36 @ wiggle.

 

[ufkacbln]

They are also a way to even out the inconsistencies between riders

I am a stronger rider than my wife and my front panniers tend to carry her stuff allowing her to have lighter panniers on the rear

 

[andym]

In my mind i'm thinking that i should have stuff on the front even if it means i only half fill the rear panniers, so the weight is evened out. I can't say this is the way to do it, but it seems reasonable to me. Maybe I'm abit scared of the balance on steep climbs and the possibilty of knackering spokes... I guess the best thing is to get out and have a go and see. I did find dhb Marsden Front Panniers though which are about 10L each and are very reasonably priced at £36 @ wiggle.

Some people swear by panniers front and back and others find that a set of rear panniers are all they need (I'm pretty much in the latter camp - but I recognize that front panniers would be useful if I need to carry more food). If you have decent wheels then it's unlikely you'll have problems with spokes. My advice would be to see how you get on with just a set of rear panniers before you splash out on front rack and panniers - especially for a short tour.

 

[willem]

Of course it all depends on circumstances: when I am on tour with my wife and kids I am the designated mule - with front panniers as well.
Willem

 

[Crankarm]

Lets get back to basics.

There are two types of front rack. This is because of the need to prevent the rack twieting in under load.

Some have a stabilising bar such as the Tara:



The alternative is to use the paired braze-ons to perform this task and dispense with the bar. The Blackburn Custom is an example:

However there is a further problem. The converging rods mean that some panniers clips willnot fit between the rods at the front or over both rods. This can limit pannier choice.

Yes, these are the ones although mine mount with just the inner bar (in this pic) on the outside bolt hole as I don't have a bolt hole on the inner side of each fork. A spacer tube is then used between the converging bars and a longer bolt is passed through this from the outer bar.

If you look on the diagonal cross bar you will see equally spaced countersinks/dimples which are used to locate the clasp which forms the lower mount. I guess Blackburn expect you to use a punch on the clasp to indent it into one of the countersinks to stop it moving when you are satisfied with position of the rack. In my experience this is pants if this is what Blackburn expect you to do as there is no strength in this arrangement, the diagonal bar soon starts slipping through the clasp when you have a pannier on it which then adopts a weird angle. So, sick of this, I just drilled a small hole through clasp and diagonal bar and put a split pin through but soon to be stainless steel bolt if I can find some. The front racks are now very solid and don't twist. I would like to make the braze on holes in the fork M6 holes as they are currently M5 so I can use a fatter stronger bolt, but that would be being piccy. Maybe if I go AWOL in the Stans or Mongolia I will do it before I leave or alternatively buy Tubus. I prefer the robust look of the Ergos to the more minimalist Taras.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Tubus_Ergo_Lowrider_Front_Rack/5360025262/

As I say I would take a pic of my Blackburn low loaders with mods to show anyone whose got them and is fed up with them moving around, but this site doesn't permit you to upload your pics unless they are hosted elsewhere.

I don't recommend these Blackburn Low Loaders. If I was starting out again it would be Tubus Ergos, but I'm stuck with what I've got and have tried to make the best of a poor design really. If anyone else owns them then it is worth doing to get a rock steady strong front rack. The converging bars are a pain but I have found there is sufficient horizontal bar just behind the bolt going into the braze on to accommodate the rearmost pannier hook so the front pannier hook can be got between the converging bars relatively easily before they become too close together. I did consider splitting the bars at the front and having a hoop welded in between and linking the two racks as Tubus do but this would probably cost more than buying Tubus Ergos. However both my front Vaude and Altura panniers now fit my modified Blackburn low loaders without problem. Also having them further back or as far back as possible means the centre of gravity of the pannier is still just on/behind the front axle which is important for stability. There is no issue with toe clearance even when turning.

Here are the ones I got although not from CRC.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=14124

 

[andym]

As I say I would take a pic of my Blackburn low loaders with mods to show anyone whose got them and is fed up with them moving around, but this site doesn't permit you to upload your pics unless they are hosted elsewhere.

Actually you can: click 'Go Advanced' then scroll down to 'Manage attachments'; click that and then follow the instructions. Alternatively, http://tinypic.com/ provides are very easy to use service.

 

[andrew_s]

Yes, these are the ones although mine mount with just the inner bar (in this pic) on the outside bolt hole as I don't have a bolt hole on the inner side of each fork. A spacer tube is then used between the converging bars and a longer bolt is passed through this from the outer bar.

If you look on the diagonal cross bar you will see equally spaced countersinks/dimples which are used to locate the clasp which forms the lower mount. I guess Blackburn expect you to use a punch on the clasp to indent it into one of the countersinks to stop it moving when you are satisfied with position of the rack.

Fitting a rack designed for attachment both sides of the fork to just a single attachment on the outside is dodgy. There's a comment about it on the CTC website from Chris Juden, who got involved with injury compensation claims after a bike shop supplied the rack fitted in this way. The supplied spacer is a stand-off for the lower attachment point if the end of the fork blade gets in the way.
If you've got just a single bolt hole on the outside face, you need a low rider with a bracing loop over the top of the wheel.

When I had one of those racks, the P-clip already had a dimple in to locate into the countersinks. It didn't stop the rack slipping - the dimple just scored a groove in the rack rod. I put a puncture patch round the rod, and clamped the P-clip over that.

 

[ufkacbln]

Fitting a rack designed for attachment both sides of the fork to just a single attachment on the outside is dodgy. There's a comment about it on the CTC website from Chris Juden, who got involved with injury compensation claims after a bike shop supplied the rack fitted in this way. The supplied spacer is a stand-off for the lower attachment point if the end of the fork blade gets in the way.
If you've got just a single bolt hole on the outside face, you need a low rider with a bracing loop over the top of the wheel.

When I had one of those racks, the P-clip already had a dimple in to locate into the countersinks. It didn't stop the rack slipping - the dimple just scored a groove in the rack rod. I put a puncture patch round the rod, and clamped the P-clip over that.

+1

As I said you must have a dual bolt fitting OR a bracer loop, you cannot compromise as a loaded front rack going into the wheel is not going to be comfortable.

 

[Tony]

I went into a certain major bike retail chain some years ago to see a Galaxy in which the right and left lowriders had been fitted to the opposite forks, with the spacer BETWEEN the two arms and both bolted to the outside of the fork. I made my feelings rather clear (i.e. swore loudly in disbelief) and one of the staff agreed. It had been sent to the shop like that and he had already fired off a rocket to HQ.
So, a sensibleand experienced cyclist sees the cock up and pulls the bike back in to be fixed. Suppose it had been one of the others?