Giving someone a bad reference

[ttcycle]

If they really are as bad as you say and you are prepared to let the new employer know that than as Greedo and Norm have said make sure you have all the evidence for that but I'm sure you know this but don't make any assertions ie mental health and make sure that the evidence you provide has been taken up with the employee beforehand as you need to have demonstrated performance management otherwise this would cause you problems down the line if it went to further

 

[Kirstie]

If they really are as bad as you say and you are prepared to let the new employer know that than as Greedo and Norm have said make sure you have all the evidence for that but I'm sure you know this but don't make any assertions ie mental health and make sure that the evidence you provide has been taken up with the employee beforehand as you need to have demonstrated performance management otherwise this would cause you problems down the line if it went to further

Of course I wouldn't make any assertions about mental health! Blimey no! And yes there's plenty of evidence that the performance issues have been taken up with the employee. There's lots of concern about freedom of information where i work so everything is always documented properly, appropriately and carefully - well it is as far as I'm concerned.

 

[marinyork]

Ah ok ttcycle this is why the reference system is really bad at predicting the quality of job performances. So would something like 'I'm would prefer not to express an opinion' be appropriate in these circs?

It's not meant to predict anything. Why would you expect it to?

I would do what Greedo has said option number 2.

 

[Kirstie]

It's not meant to predict anything. Why would you expect it to?

Because like every other recruitment technique that exists it's supposed to indicate suitability for a particular job. There was a study published absolutely ages ago which compared actual job performance with ratings about a person's competence derived from a number of different recruitment techniques. References exhibited a pathetically low correlation with performance ie less than 0.1.

 

[marinyork]

Because like every other recruitment technique that exists it's supposed to indicate suitability for a particular job. There was a study published absolutely ages ago which compared actual job performance with ratings about a person's competence derived from a number of different recruitment techniques. References exhibited a pathetically low correlation with performance ie less than 0.1.

That tells me what I'd expect. If you look at behaviours, power relations, what bosses know and so on that makes sense.

I understand the frustrations but I'm sure the other person can come to their own decision. Btw I only sound along these lines as I had a malicious reference/someone posing as someone they weren't and for my circumstances at the time it hurt a considerable deal in terms of loss of earnings so I can see the other side.

 

[Sh4rkyBloke]

The easy opt out is to provide simply the facts i.e. "this person was employed in the role of XXX between the dates Y to Z. During this time they had X number of days absent from work due to sickness."

This should say that you don't have anything positive to say and so are not really saying anything at all.

Incidentally - presumably this person no longer works with/for you and thus you are not concerned about being rid of them!!

No faith in references anyway - a positive one could be you trying to get rid of the person or it could be because they are actually very good... while a negative one could mean you are discouraging others from taking them away from you or that they are, indeed, shite... who can tell?

 

[ttcycle]

I understand what you're saying Marin and do stress that a bad reference is not to be taken on lightly - it's worth thinking on what impact this will have on said person

 

[Kirstie]

No they're currently working under my auspices, so to speak.

 

[marinyork]

Is there anyone more direct who can give them a reference ?

 

[dmoan]

Surely a case for judicious use of words such as ‘adequate’, ‘acceptable’ and ‘sufficient’ or phrases along the lines of ‘frequently attended work during her time here’, ‘fulfils potential best outside of any team environment’ and ‘finding a similar replacement through normal recruitment channels may prove difficult…’

 

[Lizban]

I'm Head of HR for a large firm, few points

1. You can say what you like in a ref. good, bad ugly provided it is true.
2. But refs are more hassle than they are worth we provide certificates of employment name, job title and dates and that is it.
3. No ref doesn’t have an impact any more (as lots of firms don’t provide them)
4. There is no obligation to provide them (but you could have fun running the implied duty to provide a reference argument)

May I suggest the following line;

Jo was employed by us for 3 years when he joined us they were fired with enthusiasm , he left the same way.

 

[Hilldodger]

'I'm would prefer not to express an opinion'

That is what I used the one time I wasn't happy to give a reference. Think it says all they need to know, really.

 

[Greedo]

I'd hate to give someone a bad reference. I only ever had to sack one person, who was essentially a bone idle sociopath, but I still felt really awful about it for ages afterwards.

I know. never nice sacking someone. It plays on your mind for ages.

Saying that though it wasn't as bad as sitting a really nice guy down who was good at his job after complaints and have to tell him he was stinking of BO. Still can picture the look on the poor guys face 10 years later

 

[jonny jeez]

4. Give the ref and your phone number if they wish to discuss further and tell them the truth on the phone.

Not to confuse or add concern, but most commercial telephones now run on IP and as such are easily recorded. Although I gather the person on the phone is obliged to inform you of this. That said, sometimes in the "depths" of a conversation, people let themselves go and open up too much...it's very hard not too when you have to talk and think at the same time as apposed to taking tons of time to consider your words and writing them down.


I'd steer clear of phone contact if I were you.

 

[rich p]

If they're working for you and you'd rather they weren't, why don't you give them a glowing reference?

These may help.


"Since my last report, this employee has reached rock bottom and now
shows signs of starting to dig."

"His men would follow him anywhere, but only out of morbid
curiosity."

"I would not allow this employee to breed."

"This associate is really not so much of a has-been, but more of a
definitely won't be."

"Works well when under constant supervision and cornered like a rat
in a trap."

"When she opens her mouth, it seems that this is only to change
whichever foot was previously in there."

"He would be out of his depth in a parking lot puddle."

"This young lady has delusions of adequacy."

"He sets low personal standards and then consistently fails to
achieve them."

"This employee should go far -- and the sooner he gets kicked out the
exit, the better."