Guardian article(with links) about why female cyclists are more vulnerable to lorries

[2Loose]

Eh? How does this relate to riding a bike as described in the article?

Sorry, was side tracked by people being annoyed at the generalisations made in the article regarding some women's abilities re. confidence, spatial awareness etc.

went off on autopilot for a minute.

 

[theclaud]

Studies suggest general differences in malefemale levels of ability.
Male strong, women less so.
Women good communicators, males less so.
Women can multi task, men are single minded.

These are generalisations and not always so, but does it make them less true?

Sorry, but all of that is bollocks, except the bit about physical strength. Just myths and received wisdom. People always stay "studies show" for this kind of thing, but are remarkably reticent about what studies show what. When they do point to studies, it invariably turns out that they show nothing of the kind. In short, there isn't any evidence for most of these claims, and certainly none that counts for anything when you've accounted for the one gigantic confounding factor of systematic social inequality. If you're going to make these improbable claims, it's up to you to back them up, not up to me to disprove them.

 

[4F]

Ok, so please tell us all why a transport firm would want to send x amount of smaller vehicles into an inner city area compared to just one HGV when it is legal to do so?

Exactly, 1 artic = 24 transit vans. Not cost effective and not really a green option.

 

[NigC]

All that's needed is a fleet of these...

 

[2Loose]

TheClaud, (OT) have a read about 'Index of Empathy for Children and Adolescents' and also 'Interpersonal Reactivity Index', both show girls getting generally higher scores than boys unless there is some autistic aspect in the subject.

Mind you, it will probably be as valid as Freud's mother fixation within the next decade, much like a lot of established psychology.
I also dispute the strength bit, being a bit of a 10 stone weakling myself...

 

[GrasB]

I wonder if GrasB would be willing to translate this a bit? "Demo lap lines"? "Reference clipping points?"

Is this to do with finding it hard to know how wide your car is (something I have a problem with on the rare occasions I drive)?

Okay a 'demo lap' in this context is a lap to demonstrate you know & can drive around a track along a known good racing line. The 'lines marking' is a grading of how close to the known racing line you are in & out of each corner, the result is a score for each corner & the entire lap.

Clipping points are key points in the corner, the apex is one most people think of but in a set of complicated corner sets there will also be specific points that you will want to drive through. You 'hit' a clipping point by passing one or other of the the front wheels over those points.

Usually one is aiming for a pace range in sections & is marked to some degree as going to fast or to slow means you're not driving to the line & clipping points as requested. It's a system that allows one to grade the precision at which a person can place a car accurately on the track independently of their car handling style & on-limit control skills.

 

[stowie]

All that's needed is a fleet of these...

I thought I was being imaginative with bungees when I tied an entire new saucepan and frying pan set to the pack of my bike. I take my hat of to this guy!

 

[MacB]

It's very clear.

I said that HGVs aren't essential in city centres. Your response was based on profit of one stakeholder. The goal of profit maximisation does not make an activity essential.

Where you're getting confused is that you're trying to argue one issue with another. That's why you're not getting the answers you want. Because they're not relevant to what I said. For example, you're bringing legality into it now. That's irrelevant.

No, you've admitted that HGV use is not essential in city centres. So the natural progression is to move the discussion on to methods of avoiding the conflict that is resulting in HGVs killing cyclists.

If you consider the issue -how, where and why the deaths are happening, then you'll understand exactly what I'm saying and come up with some of the options available yourself without me having to tell you.

Perhaps if recognised that you're clouded by some level of defensiveness because you drive HGVs, you'd find it easier to have a reasonable discussion without the faff.

still missing Linford then?

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

This ones not going to be popular, but as cyclists keep getting them selves killed in towns how about we ban cyclists from towns for their own protection or may be not allow cycling unless you have completed a cycling course or all ready have a lot of road experience. This makes as much sense as trying to ban HGVs if you have no HGV's in towns you have no town ie no food, no building materials, no maintenance to the infrastructure,no petrol no bicycle shops need I go on. If we ban cyclists what affect would that have ? zero. I have never in 30 years of cycling or motorcycling had a problem with HGV's I have always respected the drivers difficulties and need for space and the fact that any argument with a truck and I'm going to lose out. On the flip side of the coin I have had major problems with idiot/moron cyclists whilst cycling,motorcycling,car driving and HGVing they just don't have a clue of the road regulations or of their own or other peoples safety and frankly don't care. Remember serious cyclists who take the time to learn these road skills only account for a very small amount of the cyclists out there.

Back to the original argument about women cyclists I would agree that they as a general rule fail to command their road space and are much more timid on our roads and by not doing so encourage others to try and squeeze past we all know that other road users need to know what you are going to do by your positioning signaling and so forth. I wonder how many of these women who have been killed had a driving license giving them understanding of how the roads work. How many of these accidents involved the cyclist going up the inside of the truck as it was turning or waiting to turn and how many were simply overtaken then turned left across , I would hazard a guess that all of them had gone up the inside of the HGV. I may of course be wrong! May be if they had ,had the road experience or attended a cycle training course then this would not have happened.

 

[brokenbetty]

This ones not going to be popular, but as cyclists keep getting them selves killed in towns how about we ban cyclists from towns for their own protection or may be not allow cycling unless you have completed a cycling course or all ready have a lot of road experience. This makes as much sense as trying to ban HGVs if you have no HGV's in towns you have no town ie no food, no building materials, no maintenance to the infrastructure,no petrol no bicycle shops need I go on.

They did have towns before HGVs you know. (They had bicycles before HGVs as well). The reason we rely on them now is because we built infrastructure around them, and that can be changed if the will is there.

 

[mangaman]

Sorry, but all of that is bollocks, except the bit about physical strength. Just myths and received wisdom. People always stay "studies show" for this kind of thing, but are remarkably reticent about what studies show what. When they do point to studies, it invariably turns out that they show nothing of the kind. In short, there isn't any evidence for most of these claims, and certainly none that counts for anything when you've accounted for the one gigantic confounding factor of systematic social inequality. If you're going to make these improbable claims, it's up to you to back them up, not up to me to disprove them.

Come on TC, we all know men are from Mars and women are from Venus - do catch up.

I know it's true because there's a book called it.

And haven't you got some housework to do?

 

[BADGER.BRAD]

Of course towns existed before modern HGVs but surely your not surgesting we go back to the original organic HGV's and supply all shops with 40 seperate horse and carts for every one HGV all bins are empyied by Horse and Cart and every other city function is performed by horse and cart. We could of course redesign the cities so that all shops, places of work or leisure were kept well out of town, the only problem then is who would wish to live there ?

 

[Origamist]

This ones not going to be popular, but as cyclists keep getting them selves killed in towns how about we ban cyclists from towns for their own protection or may be not allow cycling unless you have completed a cycling course or all ready have a lot of road experience. This makes as much sense as trying to ban HGVs if you have no HGV's in towns you have no town ie no food, no building materials, no maintenance to the infrastructure,no petrol no bicycle shops need I go on. If we ban cyclists what affect would that have ? zero. I have never in 30 years of cycling or motorcycling had a problem with HGV's I have always respected the drivers difficulties and need for space and the fact that any argument with a truck and I'm going to lose out. On the flip side of the coin I have had major problems with idiot/moron cyclists whilst cycling,motorcycling,car driving and HGVing they just don't have a clue of the road regulations or of their own or other peoples safety and frankly don't care. Remember serious cyclists who take the time to learn these road skills only account for a very small amount of the cyclists out there..

Discussions are already underway to stagger delivery times by HGVs in London. A HGV ban is not planned.

Ban cyclists and get more congestion, more pollution, a greater strain on the NHS due to increased public health problems etc etc etc.

 

[tongskie01]

Being next to a lorry is not suicidal in itself, they can't move directly sideways. And being able to see the wing mirror does not mean that the driver has definately seen you.
The important thing is to understand how movements of the cab translate to movements of the trailer, and being where you won't get trapped whatever it does next.

thats why i need to see the driver on his mirror so that i can see what hes

doing. ie. checking his mirror before he turns left?

 

[brokenbetty]

Of course towns existed before modern HGVs but surely your not surgesting we go back to the original organic HGV's and supply all shops with 40 seperate horse and carts for every one HGV all bins are empyied by Horse and Cart and every other city function is performed by horse and cart. We could of course redesign the cities so that all shops, places of work or leisure were kept well out of town, the only problem then is who would wish to live there ?

Why would you do that? Run bulk carriers to the outskirts and smaller vans to the shops etc inside. The growth of internet shopping makes it even more viable as the delivery vans run directly from distribution centres. Look at places like Amsterdam and Venice. HGVs physically can't get to the centre yet not only do people wish to live there, they are prepared to pay a lot of money to live there.