Has the YHA gone bonkers?

[mangaman]

By the time they (financially) woke up, they actually had nowhere to go. Nearly every part of their customer base had been targeted by someone else with a more clearly defined product.

Since the peak of their popularity the amount of budget accommodation on offer, both in rural and urban areas has mushroomed. Not just B&Bs and private hostels, but Travel Lodges, camp sites, camping barns, mobile homes and cabins, couch surfing, etc.

I agree.

My GF had her 40th birthday in on of the most attracive and popular YHs around.

She booked the whole place for a week - which makes a YH a de-facto hotel.

 

[Crackle]

I suppose why this is being discussed here is because many of us would like the YHA to offer good facilities for cyclists (and walkers). Their infrastructure puts them in an excellent position to do this. However many of the prerequisites are missing.

I posted in a previous thread things I wanted from my dream hostel when biking...how many are provided by YHA?

I stayed in Alston YHA recently and noticed it had a very different character from many YHA hostels. very relaxed, friendly staff, a garden full of flowers, nicely painted, a friendly Labrador, a more homey feel, and a few interesting things on offer (you could buy frozen portions of home cooked food for example). We got chatting to the warden and she explained that she had bought the hostel from the YHA so she was free to run the place how she wanted. The difference was like night and day.

Perhaps this is the answer. To let individuals put their own creativity and ideas into something they need to take ownership of it. Probably literally. If I were a warden of a place, and I didn't expect it to be a job for life, why would I care?

The issue of youth not being able to use youth hostels really agitates me.

"The latest Health Survey for England (HSE) data shows us that nearly 1 in 4 adults, and over 1 in 10 children aged 2-10, are obese."

The last thing we need to do is put up more obstacles to fresh air and the outdoors.

I said earlier that this had happened to former hostels. In most cases it's a change for the better, independent hostels are now offering what people want. Why the YHA couldn't do this or doesn't get it I don't know. You just need to look through the independent hostel sights to see how it's done. I have to say that the English hostels seem to have lost the plot more than the Scottish hostels.

 

[Danny]

I said earlier that this had happened to former hostels. In most cases it's a change for the better, independent hostels are now offering what people want. Why the YHA couldn't do this or doesn't get it I don't know. You just need to look through the independent hostel sights to see how it's done. I have to say that the English hostels seem to have lost the plot more than the Scottish hostels.

I know there are some very good independent hostels, but I have also stayed in some that were truly grotty. At least you know that YHA hostels are all going to at least meet a certain minimum standard.

In any case how do you define "what people want" when there is not a single homogeneous group hostel users who all want the same thing. The fact that the YHA is planning to close hostels like Derwentside that have high occupancy rates throughout the year, suggests that the problems it is facing are not due to a lack of popularity.

I've only stayed in a few Scottish hostels, but I can't say that I found them anything special.

 

[Crackle]

I know there are some very good independent hostels, but I have also stayed in some that were truly grotty. At least you know that YHA hostels are all going to at least meet a certain minimum standard.

In any case how do you define "what people want" when there is not a single homogeneous group hostel users who all want the same thing. The fact that the YHA is planning to close hostels like Derwentside that have high occupancy rates throughout the year, suggests that the problems it is facing are not due to a lack of popularity.

I've only stayed in a few Scottish hostels, but I can't say that I found them anything special.

Staying in independents is a bit more of a lottery, however with careful research it's easy to find online reviews which tell you what to expect. YHA standards vary or varied too, within a smaller tolerance admittedly but they still vary.

What do people want: It's not so difficult or mysterious. Clean accomodation, reasonably priced and a range of pricing options. So, single room, shared dorm etc.. Flexible rules and the ability to use it whether you're in a group or by yourself. Self catering or able to buy a meal, a nice lounge to relax in, wiFi for people or some kind of internet access, probably a few more things and I don't see access to alchohol as one of them but pretty much that's it.

I don't understand your last sentence, define special, what are you looking for?

For myself I don't understand why the YHA is proividing this in some hostels, which are popular, try booking in one which has been transformed from the old model but closing others. Perhaps it's a simple case of only upgrading those they can make fit the new model and the others either can't or can but not economically. I think that may be their mistake though. There must be room for more than one model.

 

[Danny]

What do people want: It's not so difficult or mysterious. Clean accomodation, reasonably priced and a range of pricing options. So, single room, shared dorm etc.. Flexible rules and the ability to use it whether you're in a group or by yourself. Self catering or able to buy a meal, a nice lounge to relax in, wiFi for people or some kind of internet access, probably a few more things and I don't see access to alchohol as one of them but pretty much that's it.

Agree - but this description applies to most youth hostels I've stayed in lately. I would add helpful staff and good local knowledge to your list, which again applies to most YHA hostels.

I don't understand your last sentence, define special, what are you looking for?

I was looking for the things in your list above. Most Scottish hostels do not offer evening meals, and, at best, only provide a basic, and pretty poor value, continental breakfast. One hostel I stayed in was clearly just staffed by people from the nearest town who had no interest in outdoor activities and appeared bemused when I asked if they would be putting up a weather forecast for the next day.

For myself I don't understand why the YHA is proividing this in some hostels, which are popular, try booking in one which has been transformed from the old model but closing others. Perhaps it's a simple case of only upgrading those they can make fit the new model and the others either can't or can but not economically. I think that may be their mistake though. There must be room for more than one model.

What the YHA has said is that a lot of its hostels are now getting to an age where they require considerable refurbishment, and they simply don't have the capital required to fund all the work that is needed. Presumably the theory is that by selling off some prime hostels like Derwentside they can raise the money need to fund investment elsewhere.

 

[dellzeqq]

for reasons that could only be explained by the deep scars inscribed on my psyche by close aquaintance with the CTC accounts, I looked at the 2010 financial statement and found that

direct profits on hostels were over £10M on a turnover of £39M
membership and fundraising brought in £3.3M
non-hostel costs £8.5M
depreciation and interest £4.6M
costs relating to re-organisation and investment £0.5M

deficit £0.1M

so they haven't got a lot of wiggle room. Other than in the accomodation where the occupancy rate was just over 50%.

One thing I did find odd - the full time equivalent staff was almost 800 and the top six earners got almost half a million between them. That's on about 200 hostels. That seems a bit heavy.

 

[Crackle]

for reasons that could only be explained by the deep scars inscribed on my psyche by close aquaintance with the CTC accounts, I looked at the 2010 financial statement and found that

direct profits on hostels were over £10M on a turnover of £39M
membership and fundraising brought in £3.3M
non-hostel costs £8.5M
depreciation and interest £4.6M
costs relating to re-organisation and investment £0.5M

deficit £0.1M

so they haven't got a lot of wiggle room. Other than in the accomodation where the occupancy rate was just over 50%.

One thing I did find odd - the full time equivalent staff was almost 800 and the top six earners got almost half a million between them. That's on about 200 hostels. That seems a bit heavy.

On the face of it you can't much argue with the figures but you can question why they are what they are and whether there current approach is the right direction.

I tend to view a 'professional mgt' approach as slightly anachronisitc with an organisation which was once about ideals and enthusiasims. Lose sight of your core values and you lose sight of the whole purpose. Why else would Independent hostels, which are subject to the same fire & safety regs, maintenace costs and other running overheads, be thriving where the YHA has closed hostels. They've even sold hostels to private individuals who still run them as YHA hostels, there's something definetly wrong there.

Here's a couple of interesting links

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2011/feb/23/youth-hostels-association-selling-off

http://myreader.co.uk/msg/1366209.aspx

 

[andym]

On the face of it you can't much argue with the figures but you can question why they are what they are and whether there current approach is the right direction.

I tend to view a 'professional mgt' approach as slightly anachronisitc with an organisation which was once about ideals and enthusiasims. Lose sight of your core values and you lose sight of the whole purpose. Why else would Independent hostels, which are subject to the same fire & safety regs, maintenace costs and other running overheads, be thriving where the YHA has closed hostels. They've even sold hostels to private individuals who still run them as YHA hostels, there's something definetly wrong there.

Here's a couple of interesting links

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2011/feb/23/youth-hostels-association-selling-off

http://myreader.co.uk/msg/1366209.aspx

I don't know the ins and outs of the YHA's closure/divestment proramme. There are a number of reasons why it might choose to sell off a hostel

- if it needed expensive repairs;
- if it was not covering costs

But equally you might sell off a hostel to raise capital to use for repairs or to reduce your borrowing. If the YHA can sell a hostel to raise money and that hostel continues to operate independently I personally can't see anything wrong in that. It's all very well people banging on about selling off the family silver, but if the roof is leaking then maybe selling off the family silver is something you have to do.

And enthusiasm and ideals are great - but the YHA has to cover its costs.

BTW the guardian article doesn't mention that one of the hostels in the divestment programme is Thameside one of the large London hostels - possibly because there's a rent review due? I don't know

I agree.

My GF had her 40th birthday in on of the most attracive and popular YHs around.

She booked the whole place for a week - which makes a YH a de-facto hotel.

Someone books a hostel for a whole week (off-season?) - providing no doubt a welcome chunk of change to the YHA. I'm struggling to see what the problem is.

 

[Danny]

On the face of it you can't much argue with the figures but you can question why they are what they are and whether there current approach is the right direction.

I tend to view a 'professional mgt' approach as slightly anachronisitc with an organisation which was once about ideals and enthusiasims. Lose sight of your core values and you lose sight of the whole purpose. Why else would Independent hostels, which are subject to the same fire & safety regs, maintenace costs and other running overheads, be thriving where the YHA has closed hostels. They've even sold hostels to private individuals who still run them as YHA hostels, there's something definetly wrong there.

Most hostels that have closed by the YHA have, sadly, not become independent hostels which suggests that they were not financially viable on their own. Indeed the YHA has traditionally used profits from the really popular hostels to subsidise other hostels, though this is clearly changing.

A large organisation like the YHA will have overheads not faced by independent hostels. For example they need to make most or all of their hostels accessible to the disabled to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act. They will also need to employ staff on proper terms and conditions, whereas many independent hostels are run as family businesses or, I suspect, manage to operate more "informal" employment arrangements.

 

[funnymummy]

To be fair I think there are still many hostels like Alston - I couldn't fault my recent stay at Malham YHA for example.

The YHA policy on youths staying in hostels is actually as follows:

Families with children under the age of 5 will need to book a private room. Children aged 5-15 can only stay when accompanied by a parent, guardian or as part of an organised group and when staying in shared accommodation the parent or guardian must be of the same sex.

Personally I don't think this sounds unreasonable.

It's not unreasonable, but it now means I won't be using YH's as often as before.
#2 goes to a Special activity club alternate weekedns & every summer hols, he goes for a week. #3 & I go off cycling alone, we did camp but often had one night in a YH (more depending on weather) of luxury


#3 is now 7, so I have to book an entire family room for us, arther then him share a dorm bunk with me, one night in Cornwall last year cost less than £20, this year it would be £49

 

[Crackle]

Most hostels that have closed by the YHA have, sadly, not become independent hostels which suggests that they were not financially viable on their own. Indeed the YHA has traditionally used profits from the really popular hostels to subsidise other hostels, though this is clearly changing.

A large organisation like the YHA will have overheads not faced by independent hostels. For example they need to make most or all of their hostels accessible to the disabled to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act. They will also need to employ staff on proper terms and conditions, whereas many independent hostels are run as family businesses or, I suspect, manage to operate more "informal" employment arrangements.

Yes, I take your point about costs of staff, I'm not sure you are 100% correct on the disability discrimination part, I've witnessed a few companies complying with that in extremely inventive ways and does it not also apply to small private concerns as well i.e independent hostels. Anyway I don't know, I'm raising the question rather than supplying an answer.

What I thought the articles illustrated was that

1) Not all hostels are being closed on cost grounds, Derwentwater is profitable and could cover it's costs. This points to the fact that the YHA has a policy and an ethos but it's not in keeping with the ethos established when it was founded, hence accusations of losing it's way.
2) The second link hinted that modernisation, centralised booking systems, professional management structures are still not enough to fill beds and the YHA is missing a trick in where and how it pitches itself i.e has lost touch with it's grass root users. Now I'm sure that they can nullify this by changing their user base or more precisely, widening it but in doing so they're neglecting the very demographic they were set up to serve. Again, accusations of losing their way.

I was thinking there must be parallels here with the CTC. On the face of it what they are doing sounds reasoned and plausible but it's a bit, trite & corporate in its thinking, or so I'm beginning to think.

 

[andym]

What I thought the articles illustrated was that

1) Not all hostels are being closed on cost grounds, Derwentwater is profitable and could cover it's costs. This points to the fact that the YHA has a policy and an ethos but it's not in keeping with the ethos established when it was founded, hence accusations of losing it's way.
2) The second link hinted that modernisation, centralised booking systems, professional management structures are still not enough to fill beds and the YHA is missing a trick in where and how it pitches itself i.e has lost touch with it's grass root users. Now I'm sure that they can nullify this by changing their user base or more precisely, widening it but in doing so they're neglecting the very demographic they were set up to serve. Again, accusations of losing their way.

I've never had problems with the YHA booking system. It seems to work fine. The second link sounded like people grasping at straws.

The YHA is in a difficult situation and has serious decisions to make. I'm sur no one wants to lose Derwentwater, or other hostels, but the fundamental problem remains that the organisation needs to be able to survive financially. If you could pay the bills with waffle and nostalgia then maybe it would be a different story.

 

[Danny]

Yes, I take your point about costs of staff, I'm not sure you are 100% correct on the disability discrimination part, I've witnessed a few companies complying with that in extremely inventive ways and does it not also apply to small private concerns as well i.e independent hostels. Anyway I don't know, I'm raising the question rather than supplying an answer.

I believe that the YHA has taken a positive decision that it wants to comply with the spirit of the Disability Discrimination Act by providing properly accessible facilities such as disabled toilets, ramps, etc. Inventive ways if meeting the DDA can be be fine if they result in accessible facilities, but too often it just means finding inventive ways of getting round the legislation. In any case a small independent hostel is unlikely to be sued if it does not comply with the DDA, whereas there is a good chance that the YHA would have action taken against it.

I haven't had a problem with the central booking system either, but you can still phone up hostels directly if you prefer to book that way. And in this day and age having an on-line booking system is pretty much a pre-requisite for ensuring that the YHA continues to appeal to young people.

 

[Danny]

#3 is now 7, so I have to book an entire family room for us, rather then him share a dorm bunk with me, one night in Cornwall last year cost less than £20, this year it would be £49

I agree this is a bit of a nonsense, and I can't see any logical reason why a 7 year old boy should not share a women's dorm. Clearly the hostel warden should be given some discretion over how the rules would apply in such situations.

Having said that I am not sure I would feel so comfortable about the thought of a 7 year old girl sharing a men's dorm, and I can see that it is difficult to come up with rules that apply to every situation.

 

[albion]

"We've been spending about £3m less than we should have been each year over the last 30 years"

That really says it all when you consider that the swanky Matlock head office will cost far more than that to run. You also have to realise that many closures are 'cash raids' and thus cannot afford to be sold cheap to would be hostel owners.