Helmets - (my case study)

[hackbike 666]

I know the car is king or so it seems to be,and people seem to drive with scant disregard for other peoples safety.

 

[Arch]

I'd say proper enforcement of traffic law, a regular re-test for all drivers, automatic retesting for anyone found to have caused a reportable accident would be a start. With that in place, measures like shared space &c can start to be implemented.

People have to begin to see using the roads as something that entails a responsibility for the safety of others (especially in cities and residential areas). It should be a matter of pride to be a skilled driver (as in, someone who can read the road ahead &c, and to the extent that is possible, "look after" the interests of other road users, rather than someone who drives like a second-rate stuntman).

We need a huge change in our attitude to motor transport in general, and to the private car in particular, imo, and some deeply unpopular measures will have to be taken to achieve it, I think.

Spot on. But how do you ever make that a popular enough opinion for it to be anything but political suicide for the party that suggest it? So many people (even those affected, sometimes, I think) see road deaths and injuries as 'just one of those things'. Or their reaction is to treat the symptoms, not the cause (back to your hi-vis vests, and the whole helmet debate.)

I'm not arguing with your view, I agree completely, but I'm rather pessimistic about anything getting done. Unless or until the fuel runs out.

 

[Arch]

And another thing... Why did this happen to us, and not so much in other countries? I haven't been abroad much, but I've been to Copenhagen and it was lovely - plenty of respect, and good useful facilities. I've cycled through France and had nothing but courtesy from drivers (although others have said, if you're in car, you're fair game...). Then there's the Dutch attitudes and infrastucture.

Is it our desire to be closer to America than the continent? I heard some old dear on Any Questions a month or so ago (I forget what the issue was), saying "we're much closer to America in spirit, we should ditch the EU", and all I could think was 'why? Why do we want to be more like a nation of obese, lazy car obsessed people who think cheese comes in cans, than a continent of people who can still use their legs, and have some of the best cuisines in the world?" (the food bit is OT, a bit, sorry...)

 

[hackbike 666]

Arch I found Japan and Thailand very nice to cycle in.

In Japan you can even cycle on the pavements,something I found hard to adjust to.

In fact after cycling in Thailand I found it extremely hard to adjust to the crap driving we have to put up with here when I came back.

 

[the reluctant cyclist]

I agree that tolerence on the roads is non existant!

The only way I would have said would be more Police to enforce the laws that are already in place. The laws that are in place are adequate in my humble opinion!

Getting back to falling off your bike though and how you land (which fasinates me)..

I have come off a few times.

The first time I don't even remember how I landed but the second time I was stationary and a car hit me from behind at about 15 mph. Somehow I landed on my arse?! Just one side too?!

My god the bruise was absolutely enormous - it really hurt! I have a photo of it but my daughter says the photo looks like porno so I don't like to spread it around the net!!!

If anyone has got any ideas of how I could have landed this way I would love to hear them!

The latest time I got knocked off I landed exactly like you all have said - on my side but interesting that somebody referenced the kerb at the side of the road - that is indeed lethal and I hit my hand on that - shattering my lowest knuckle on my little finger - stupidly that did not hurt as much as my arse did the previous time?!!!!

 

[4F]

I agree that tolerence on the roads is non existant!

The only way I would have said would be more Police to enforce the laws that are already in place. The laws that are in place are adequate in my humble opinion!

Getting back to falling off your bike though and how you land (which fasinates me)..

I have come off a few times.

The first time I don't even remember how I landed but the second time I was stationary and a car hit me from behind at about 15 mph. Somehow I landed on my arse?! Just one side too?!

My god the bruise was absolutely enormous - it really hurt! I have a photo of it but my daughter says the photo looks like porno so I don't like to spread it around the net!!!

If anyone has got any ideas of how I could have landed this way I would love to hear them!

The latest time I got knocked off I landed exactly like you all have said - on my side but interesting that somebody referenced the kerb at the side of the road - that is indeed lethal and I hit my hand on that - shattering my lowest knuckle on my little finger - stupidly that did not hurt as much as my arse did the previous time?!!!!

I reckon that as the front of the car hit you from behind it would have propelled the bottom half of your body forward faster than the top hence the painful bottom landing, ouch.

A lot of drivers on the roads these days always seem to think that their journey is more important than others hence the lack of tolerance or grace shown to other road users. Minor offences such as parking on double yellow lines, stopping in hatched area's and stopping to drop people off on ped crossings are more frequent and as such people think they can get away with these with little recompense and therefore keep pushing more and more with other offences. Start handing out 4 - 6 points for these offences and more bobbies on the beat to enforce and it would be a great start. I also think that an automatic ban of 6 months for using a mobile phone whilst driving would sort a lot of these half wits out

 

[Arch]

Start handing out 4 - 6 points for these offences and more bobbies on the beat to enforce and it would be a great start. I also think that an automatic ban of 6 months for using a mobile phone whilst driving would sort a lot of these half wits out

Ah, but then they bleat that they need to drive to take the kids to school, or to get to work, and some bloody judges allow that as mitigation!

I agree, more police out there, on the beat, picking stuff up. And I include cyclists who transgress in that too, of course.

Do we think the fixed penalty ticket has anything to do with it? Just coughing up a fine and points seems like less of a punishment than going to court (I'm thinking in terms of shame). Although, I guess the courts would be swamped otherwise.

Punishment is one thing, but there are always those who think they'll never get caught. Deep down, you need an attitude of real respect and care for others.

 

[alecstilleyedye]

i've seen ffff fall off on a motorbike sans helmet and he was then a ghost…

 

[John the Monkey]

Punishment is one thing, but there are always those who think they'll never get caught. Deep down, you need an attitude of real respect and care for others.

Interestingly, enforcement is part of this. There's some recent work suggesting that drivers perceive lower speeds to be safer in areas where they know they are almost certain to be issued with a ticket for exceeding the limit. In other similar areas with less stringent enforcement, they perceived higher speeds to be safer than in the properly enforced areas.

I think the other part of this is for those doing the enforcing to take things more seriously - currently, I'd say drink-driving is the only offence with any real stigma attached to it. Attitudes will be slow to change, but they'll be quicker without the jocular bad luck old chap attitude to most driving offences.

Regarding Copenhagen, and the Dutch experience, both countries made hard and unpopular choices in the 1970s, and reaped the rewards. I suspect attitudes in France &c may be more due to national character (valuing cycling as an part of the national character, sporting and otherwise - and strict liability where cars collide with vulnerable road users).

 

[4F]

i've seen ffff fall off on a motorbike sans helmet and he was then a ghost…

chortle, I have now got my eye in on ghost valley so next time revenge will be mine. Hope we have not frightened off the porkmeister though.

 

[fossyant]

As for coming off - most common injuries are shoulder, hip, elbow and knee scrapes.

As I've said, I've come off loads, but only once hit my head on the floor - but that was assisted by a car hitting me at considerable speed.

My most painful crash was coming off at speed, round a bend, hit some 'milk produce spilage', and proceeded to slide on my left butt and hand for about 30 feet. Needless to say lycra shorts don't offer much protection - I removed a six inch square off my ass.... stones in my hand.....etc etc... (plus ruined a new pair of club shorts)) then had to ride 15 miles home showing my butt off to all the folk in Cheshire...at least it was red, rather than white.....

Oh did it sting when I got in the shower. It oozed for a good week or two....

Have I taken this thread off lids.....good.....

 

[4F]

Nice try Foss Just waiting for a response to post 35

OK lets look at this another way. In both instances when on my bike I have fallen to my left and not hit my head. Would it be unreasonable to suggest that had I been wearing a helmet it is possible that the extra weight and size of the helmet would have made my head contact the ground thus giving me the false impression that the helmet saved me when in fact the opposite was true ?

 

[John the Monkey]

N
OK lets look at this another way. In both instances when on my bike I have fallen to my left and not hit my head. Would it be unreasonable to suggest that had I been wearing a helmet it is possible that the extra weight and size of the helmet would have made my head contact the ground thus giving me the false impression that the helmet saved me when in fact the opposite was true ?

I've fallen to the right (assisted by a bus) and to the left (assisted by a car) and not hit my head either time. (touches wood, crosses self etc) I do wear a helmet[1].

[1] But would not support compulsion, or the conclusion that wearing one would always "save" those who don't.

 

[fossyant]

Have you seen the forecast tomorrow ?????

 

[ufkacbln]

"There is also the work of Professor Hurt in the US that is showing how modern helmets are failing to stop "diffuse" (those that occur with the brain moving inside the skull) either due to the decrease in absorptive material or rotation as the vents and protrusions catch causing faster deceleration."

How effective is a helmet compare to your skull alone for "diffuse"?

Technically worse in some cases.

A rounded design helmet or a skull will slide on impact whereas a protrusion can arrest this slide causing deceleration that increases these injuries. That is why the number of diffuse injuries is increasing with the introduction of more modern helmets.