Help needed identifying an old Claud Butler

[CaptainWheezy]

Are you sure that the forks are original to the frame?

The frame number stamped on the forks matches that under the bottom bracket so I have to assume so. Looking at some Holdsworth bikes from the early 1960's, they seem to have forks that have the same crown design so could at least point to it being a Holdsworth era bike.

 

[raleighnut]

Are you sure that the forks are original to the frame?

yep they are.

Hi All,

I'm pretty sure there is another filled hole on the head tube, so the original badge would have been riveted on. I also measured the rear dropout spacing as 120mm.

The Photo above does look quite alike, however there are a few subtle differences with my frame. For one, the forks are different, and also the head tube on mine is much longer.

Also, looking at the brochure page for the Olympic Sprint model, it should have different dropouts on the back so I'm not sure that bike is even an Olympic Sprint:
View attachment 351820

I've spent ages staring at photo's of frames on google and the one thing that stands out is the design of the fork crown on mine seems not to match most of those I see elsewhere. Perhaps if I can find another bike with the same forks I will have a better idea of its age! Thanks for the help so far anyway!

rear dropouts at 120mm suggest the brake bridge is original, as one reason for changing the bridge is to do a 'proper job' of spreading the rear triangle

 

[classic33]

Hi All,

I'm pretty sure there is another filled hole on the head tube, so the original badge would have been riveted on. I also measured the rear dropout spacing as 120mm.

The Photo above does look quite alike, however there are a few subtle differences with my frame. For one, the forks are different, and also the head tube on mine is much longer.

Also, looking at the brochure page for the Olympic Sprint model, it should have different dropouts on the back so I'm not sure that bike is even an Olympic Sprint:
View attachment 351820

I've spent ages staring at photo's of frames on google and the one thing that stands out is the design of the fork crown on mine seems not to match most of those I see elsewhere. Perhaps if I can find another bike with the same forks I will have a better idea of its age! Thanks for the help so far anyway!

The decals, assuming they're genuine, puts the frame within their "Olympic" range. And should be no later/newer than 1957.

Head tube size would change with frame size though.

 

[classic33]

The frame number stamped on the forks matches that under the bottom bracket so I have to assume so. Looking at some Holdsworth bikes from the early 1960's, they seem to have forks that have the same crown design so could at least point to it being a Holdsworth era bike.

No, the Olympic Rings were never used by them.

 

[raleighnut]

No, the Olympic Rings were never used by them.

Err, it has been repainted so any decals are of no help to ID the frame.

 

[CaptainWheezy]

As I said before though, I don't think the decals are original. The frame has definitely been resprayed and the holes for mounting the head tube badge have been filled.

 

[classic33]

As I said before though, I don't think the decals are original. The frame has definitely been resprayed and the holes for mounting the head tube badge have been filled.

They(Claud Butler), wouldn't allow the use of replacement decals, on a frame that wasn't theirs. Nor would any manufacturer. If the decals are suspect, I'd rule out a Claud Butler connection, meaning it could be manufacturer.

 

[CaptainWheezy]

They(Claud Butler), wouldn't allow the use of replacement decals, on a frame that wasn't theirs. Nor would any manufacturer. If the decals are suspect, I'd rule out a Claud Butler connection, meaning it could be manufacturer.

How are they even going to know ? You can just buy the decals and put them on yourself:

http://bicycledecals.net/claudbutlerdecals.htm

 

[Venod]

This thread is interesting but please stop calling tranfers, decals, they would have been transfers when the frame was manufactured just as they are today, I notice it has mudguard mounting eyes not fender mounting points.

 

[classic33]

How are they even going to know ? You can just buy the decals and put them on yourself:

http://bicycledecals.net/claudbutlerdecals.htm

Which is why I said "assuming they're genuine".

1968/1969 Claud Butler Electron Super Five?

 

[classic33]

At one stage you had three separate "Claud Butlers" producing frames, at the same time.
"The end of the Original Claud Butler
Although Petrol rationing had ended on 26 May 1950 the petrol was low quality. The improvement in quality, after the opening of the huge new refineries in Cheshire and at Fawley, Southampton (official opening 14 Sep 1951), seriously hit bicycle sales. Bill Hurlow says things were so slow at Holdsworth at the end of 1951 that they used to wait for the mail to be opened to see if they had any frames to build that day. The situation re-stabilised, but in July 1956 president Nasser of Egypt nationalised the Suez canal, hitting fuel supplies to the UK and all British industry. This time, the petrol shortage was bad for bike sales. Despite the fact that Claud Butler cycles were held in very high regard, the company, already in financial straits, went into receivership in Oct 1956. Clauds drinking will not have helped.

"...in 1956 he owed in excess of £15000 to Customs & Excise for Purchase Tax, which he was unable to pay, and in October of that year the receivers were called in. The senior official receiver WF Creswell put the debts at around £70,000 with assetts only amounting to £12,000 to £13,000". (Colin Matthews)

Adam Hill (Clarion Cycle Works, Padiham) of Hill and Hill Special fame, heard of Clauds plight and went to London late in 1956 to negotiate the purchase of the Claud Butler and Saxon names. However, petrol rationing was introduced in Dec 1956, much of British industry (including Holdsworth) was reduced to a four day week. During the long process Hill Cycles ran into financial difficulties and the deal, with terms agreed, was never finalised.

Chartered Accountant KR Corke of London had been appointed as trustee and on 11 Mar 1957 Clauds machinery and plant were sold by auction from Clapham Manor St. The auctioneer was Edward Symmons & Partners of 4 Albany Courtyard, Piccadilly W1. The tools and goodwill were sold to Adam Hill. (Colin Matthews)

Petrol rationing ended on 14 May 1957, but the 4 day week continued and Hill Cycles ran into difficulties.

"In July 1958 the Holdsworth Co Ltd Lullington Rd, Anerly, London SE20 bought three registered Claud Butler trade marks" (Colin Matthews):

• No. 654268 'CB and link design Headbadge'
• No. 579689 'CB monogram and device'
• No. 612055 'Claud Butler signature'

This was a very good move, back on a five day week, they struggled to keep pace with demand. People particularly valued the Claud Butler name on a bike, even non cyclists thought a Claud Butler was something extra special.

Claud's attempts to re-start
Clauds first restart attempt was assisted by Evelyn Hamilton, with whom there were rumours of a long term affair. Evelyn had a bike shop in Streatham, S. London and had sold her own badged frames into the early 1950s. The new Claud's bore a script Hamilton Butler Down Tube decal, but the name Claud Butler appeared on the Headtube decal. This lead to problems with Holdsworth who had bought the Claud Butler name. Claud also had poor credit worthiness, so this endeavour failed quickly.

Claud announced his re-start as "The New Claud" in March 1960 although there is evidence he had re-started in Aug 1959. His Raleigh dealership listed in Spring 1960 says CLAUD BUTLER Ltd. 34 St. John's Hill, Clapham Junction, London SW11.

There were three framesets produced personally by Claud, the Paris-Roubaix, XV111 Olympiad and the Regency-Continental. All were supplied with alloy seatpin and carried "The New Claud", "Claud Butler London England", and laurel wreath with Olympic rings transfers. Adverts for these "CB Himself Frames" are in early 1960 editions of Cycling.

Pride & Clarke 158 Stockwell Road, London, S.W.9 had the exclusive agency for these frames, but the venture was very short lived due to the legalities of who owned the name. Claud was adamant that he could use it because the receivers only sold three registered Claud Butler trade marks (as above) to Holdsworthy. Claud used block lettering because they had bought the Claud Butler signature.

It seems he was wrong. Holdsworth soon started using the CB block lettering on some models and in 1963 a new model, the Velo Capital had a new D/T decal "Claud Butler London England". This decal was used on a 1964 and 1965 model, then dropped.

In 1968 he tried to make a comeback with Keith Mernickle, trading as C&K Cycles (Claud & Keith), but his health was failing, the venture didn't last long and few were ever produced"

 

[CaptainWheezy]

Which is why I said "assuming they're genuine".

1968/1969 Claud Butler Electron Super Five?

Looking at images (google image search) of that model, the frame itself looks very close, especially the lugs used, however the fork crown doesn't match. Its such a shame that the nkilgariff site has removed contact details since it seems he was previously able to do all this from the frame number!

I think if I can't identify it, I'll just pick any old colour scheme I like. I fancy at least building it up since I think it should just about fit me.

 

[CaptainWheezy]

At one stage you had three separate "Claud Butlers" producing frames, at the same time

Yes, I think this is the main problem. I suspect this bike is from that era!

 

[CaptainWheezy]

Interesting... The forks used on this frame look identical to the one on mine, perhaps gives a better idea of date:

 

[Gaben]

Your bike was indeed manufactured after CB went into receivership in 1957 and the brand was taken over by Holdsworth. The bad news of it (apart from not being a genuine CB) is that Holdsworth gave up on coding the date of manufacturing into the serial number, so there is no point in holding onto that.

With CB bikes like yours, one can get an approximate dating by judgment of the lugs, braze-ons, dropouts and the paintwork/design as well as componentry, compared to known visual references on the Internet.

An indicative reference confirming that your bike is a post-1957 CB-s is the location of the pump pegs on the bottom of the top tube (vs. those on the down tube on genuine CB bikes).

Considering that this frame sports simple Prugnat lugs first introduced in 1964, and an arched seat stay bridge (which was phased out sometimes in the seventies), this frame can be dated anywhere in those years. Probably this is as precise a dating, as can be.

Hope that helps!