Helping UK jobs and economy - Buy British?

[threebikesmcginty]

For example, I'm happy to buy from Germany - Rohloff, Supernova, Schwalbe, Schmidt as I didn't see a viable UK alternative - I also chose Ortlieb over Carradice based on function and form - but I do buy Hope stuff, hubs, stems, headsets, spacers, seatpost clamps

Just list the stuff you don't buy - be much quicker!

 

[MacB]

Just list the stuff you don't buy - be much quicker!

I'm just doing my bit, being a good little consumer

 

[threebikesmcginty]

I'm just doing my bit, being a good little consumer

Your purchases are significant enough to affect the GDP.

 

[ASC1951]

at best that's disingenuous and I hope that FF doesn't feel he needs to stoop to your level.......however I don't mind slumming it so bring it on, back that statement up

OK. Consumer goods have to be made somewhere. Campaigns like 'buy British' seek to promote local jobs, which would necessarily mean that people outside Britain would no longer be making those goods. Usually those people are in countries with lower wages and living standards e.g. Indonesia and India. People in those countries need jobs every bit as much as British workers.

I'm just pointing out that Buying British isn't a zero-sum notion. That's a perfectly fair point.

If you want to move on from that, there is ample evidence (as others in this thread have pointed out) that industrial and agricultural protectionism benefits inefficient capitalists, disadvantages ordinary consumers and often impoverishes overseas workers.

 

[MacB]

OK. Consumer goods have to be made somewhere. Campaigns like 'buy British' seek to promote local jobs, which would necessarily mean that people outside Britain would no longer be making those goods. Usually those people are in countries with lower wages and living standards e.g. Indonesia and India. People in those countries need jobs every bit as much as British workers.

I'm just pointing out that Buying British isn't a zero-sum notion. That's a perfectly fair point.

If you want to move on from that, there is ample evidence (as others in this thread have pointed out) that industrial and agricultural protectionism benefits inefficient capitalists, disadvantages ordinary consumers and often impoverishes overseas workers.

hmmm, very one sided and I wasn't saying that blanket protectionism is a valid approach but the options are fairly simple. We are never going to be in a position where we can achieve full employment via export led high tech and knowledge based services growth. Do we engage fully in a race to the bottom? abandon the social contract and go every person for themselves? We're getting close in some of the more deprived areas but our costs are still too high. The NHS, minimum wage, H&S and human rights are all 'holding us back'. They are a cost burden that's strangling our ability to be competitive, we know China and India aren't about to introduce these things so we'd better ditch them to make it a fair fight. You use the term 'inefficient capitalists' like it's some sort of a deadly sin, yet you couldn't find a more 'protected' industry than banking.

Where do we stop, where would you draw the line or do you believe in the ultimate free markets and a total free for all?

If you do then I don't think we'll find common ground, if you don't then we're just talking about operational parameters.

 

[GaryA]

In other countries their governments tend to buy their own countries products for transport, emergency services etc..
Doesnt seem to happen here, in fact their seems to be a policy of anything-but-the-home-product even when the home product is nothing to be ashamed of...

 

[Dan B]

OK. Consumer goods have to be made somewhere. Campaigns like 'buy British' seek to promote local jobs, which would necessarily mean that people outside Britain would no longer be making those goods. Usually those people are in countries with lower wages and living standards e.g. Indonesia and India. People in those countries need jobs every bit as much as British workers.

Yes, but if they're out of work my taxes aren't paying for their benefits. If the moral benefit is equal either way (I have no opinion on whether this is actually the case) there is still an economic argument in favour of paying people to make stuff if your alternative is to pay them for doing nothing.

 

[GilesM]

In other countries their governments tend to buy their own countries products for transport, emergency services etc..
Doesnt seem to happen here, in fact their seems to be a policy of anything-but-the-home-product even when the home product is nothing to be ashamed of...

I agree, but this has been going on for a very long time, however now the public sector is limited by EU law to follow the correct tendering process, this does not allow for bias towards home grown companies/products, unfortuantely, I suspect the UK is the only country that actually follows these laws and doesn't favour the home grown stuff.

 

[ASC1951]

hmmm, very one sided ..... You use the term 'inefficient capitalists' like it's some sort of a deadly sin, yet you couldn't find a more 'protected' industry than banking.

Where do we stop, where would you draw the line or do you believe in the ultimate free markets and a total free for all?

If you do then I don't think we'll find common ground, if you don't then we're just talking about operational parameters.

Whoaa! I was just saying that buying British had another side, not setting out a ten page analysis of the economics of international trade. There can indeed be good reasons to buy local with particular products e.g. unnecessary freight miles.

As to 'one sided', we all tend to be. Even your good self, MacB, although presumably on a different side. And by 'inefficent capitalist' I simply meant that the primary beneficiaries of protectionism are 'those capitalists who are inefficient', not to suggest that capitalism is inefficient - as I'm sure you know, I'm instinctively further towards the free market end than the protect-and-regulate end.

 

[subaqua]

In other countries their governments tend to buy their own countries products for transport, emergency services etc..
Doesnt seem to happen here, in fact their seems to be a policy of anything-but-the-home-product even when the home product is nothing to be ashamed of...

range rovers for motorway patrols were diabolically bad. wouldn't pull a greasy man out of a greasy bed never mind pull a 32tonner off the motorway.

the rover SD1 was terrible , regularly cooked brakes, and the V8 engine was 50 years out of date when the british bought it off the yanks !!

I could list all the british cars the police used to use , strangely only 1 or 2 get used now the astra and the transit van being the most prolific. what does that say about UK products ??

 

[MacB]

Whoaa! I was just saying that buying British had another side, not setting out a ten page analysis of the economics of international trade. There can indeed be good reasons to buy local with particular products e.g. unnecessary freight miles.

As to 'one sided', we all tend to be. Even your good self, MacB, although presumably on a different side. And by 'inefficent capitalist' I simply meant that the primary beneficiaries of protectionism are 'those capitalists who are inefficient', not to suggest that capitalism is inefficient - as I'm sure you know, I'm instinctively further towards the free market end than the protect-and-regulate end.

To be honest I didn't think you were but your opening 'one-liner' deserved a bit of harsh treatment

You may be surprised, I'm actually very pro efficiencies, markets and capitalism, pro meritocracy if you like - but I'm also very pro the social contract and the greater good, I don't feel the two are mutually exclusive. I also believe happy people are more productive and lead to a better society for us all. From a self interest perspective I'd rather spend some of my money on improvements via taxation than on building ever greater levels of security around me and mine.

Don't forget I was referring to a protectionism based around human rights and wages not around nation states. I see the state as a tool to police the framework we agree upon, that doesn't require a large state, in fact the state could be shrunk considerably. But we've got to get a decent framework first, I actually agree with a Big Society concept though I'm sure I would differ on the detail, and the route to achieve it, with Cameron.

That takes us back full circle to growth and jobs, a 'jobless recovery' isn't really going to do any good.

 

[dellzeqq]

there's one good reason for buying british products - wanting to live in a country that makes stuff. Hence my Brompton.

 

[GilesM]

there's one good reason for buying british products - wanting to live in a country that makes stuff. Hence my Brompton.

A fine reason, although I'll never be sure about Bromptons, but the fact that some odd stuff is made in Britain is a good enough reason to be happy.

 

[subaqua]

there's one good reason for buying british products - wanting to live in a country that makes stuff. Hence my Brompton.

melton mowbray pork pies, cornish pasties, Stilton cheese are also good reasons

 

[Hilldodger]

Bromptons aren't totally British made