How Did You Get to Where You Are?

[Maverick Goose]

Thanks-just had phone interview with SYHA today for cook/assistant job at New Lanark YH which seemed to go pretty well so fingers crossed [only a 6 month contract though] . Have applied for 4 National Trust jobs, plus kitchen assistant at the Nag's Head in Edale and a bunch of other chef/kitchen asst jobs ...have a few other options hopefully!

 

[PaulB]

I rather preferred my former mental image of them having 'brains the size of small planets'!

Some surgeons do and most are alright but some...whoa! The anaesthetist is usually the brightest spark in an operating theatre and that's good as it's him/her you are reliant on, mostly. The surgeon usually goes 'how does this work?" and is satisfied with answer 'it just does' whereas the gasman, with no need to know why my lot are there meanders over, through boredom, and wants intricate detail about our product or service.

 

[ju5t1n]

What an interesting thread – enjoyed reading it and feel I ought to contribute:

Left school with 9 GCSEs and 3 A Levels

Went off to Art College to pursue my dreams, left after a year (disillusioned)

Went to Portsmouth Poly to study Politics, left after a year (confused)

Then I spent a few years doing various short term jobs including; labourer on a building site, selling restaurant tickets door-to-door, erecting marquees, selling aerial photographs of people’s houses, and machine operator in a pencil factory.

In 1997 I found a more stable job at a PR company preparing press information packs, press releases etc. I did this for 4 years.
Then I got offered a job selling expensive software to banks (by complete luck, a friend worked at the recruitment company and got me the interview). The owners of the company sold up in 2005 so I left.

I spent almost all of 2005 cycle touring around Europe with my wife.

Landed a well paid job with a big US company selling banking software – these were 3 of the most depressing years of my life.

Took redundancy in 2008 and started by own business consultancy specialising in information management compliance.

 

[threebikesmcginty]

...machine operator in a pencil factory.

I worked there too but I left as I couldn't see the point.

 

[Adasta]

What an interesting thread – enjoyed reading it and feel I ought to contribute

Thanks for contributing. I started the thread out of my own disillusionment. I just finished postgrad study and I've not had ongoing full-time employment for about 4 months now. I went to uni because I wanted to study, not because I wanted a good job when I left (if that were the case, I wouldn't have studied English Lit!).

However, it's quite depressing to be in your 20s and have no prospects. I've been interviewed - and turned down - for a few jobs, usually because one of the other candidates is more experienced than I am. That's a bitter pill to swallow: my rejection is not even based on my ability but simply on the fact that I haven't been doing such-and-such a job for 2+ years. I'm also being turned down for jobs I used to do before I went to uni which is a bit baffling.

I just wanted to see how everyone else turned out, really. It's not the best of times at the moment.

 

[mgarl10024]

my rejection is not even based on my ability but simply on the fact that I haven't been doing such-and-such a job for 2+ years.

Ah yes - the old experience paradox. You can't have the job to get the experience, because you don't have enough experience. I was there when I graduated. Most software people want someone will 2+ years experience (4 preferably).
My tactic was to offer/accept a lower salary. It saved them money and got me the experience I needed. Not always an easy pill to swallow.
For really difficult areas (like fashion) people offer working for free - amazing!

It'll come though, as long as you keep your chin up.

 

[marinyork]

Ah yes - the old experience paradox. You can't have the job to get the experience, because you don't have enough experience. I was there when I graduated. Most software people want someone will 2+ years experience (4 preferably).
My tactic was to offer/accept a lower salary. It saved them money and got me the experience I needed. Not always an easy pill to swallow.
For really difficult areas (like fashion) people offer working for free - amazing!

It'll come though, as long as you keep your chin up.

Actually, it's not just for really difficult areas and it's not amazing, it's just how our country works. It's rife in all manner of areas and people not only offer and apply for very competitive internships but a lot of places actually charge... People are very resistant to believing this goes on as they can't believe how quickly things have changed (you obviously being a very good example) and it's also very depressing that such basic positions they are taking advantage of people. I would also say that your idea of equating software with much of the rest of the jobs market is a bit on the weird side at the very least.

 

[ColinJ]

However, it's quite depressing to be in your 20s and have no prospects. I've been interviewed - and turned down - for a few jobs, usually because one of the other candidates is more experienced than I am. That's a bitter pill to swallow: my rejection is not even based on my ability but simply on the fact that I haven't been doing such-and-such a job for 2+ years. I'm also being turned down for jobs I used to do before I went to uni which is a bit baffling.

Do you want a fulfilling career, or are you just looking for a way of earning money?

If you can find fulfilment outside of work i.e. your attitude is 'Work to live' rather than 'Live to work', I'd seriously suggest that you spend some time looking at Internet Marketing (IM) in between filling in applications for conventional jobs.

There are a lot of bright young people like you making a good living doing IM.

Advantages: The most flexy flextime possible, very low barrier to entry - £250 could cover your costs for a year (a few domain names, webhosting account and some software; I'm assuming you have the computer and internet access already), no boss to answer to, virtually unlimited potential earnings, you can work anywhere with a broadband connection and power for your computer.

Disadvantages: Steep learning curve, worrying uncertainty of income (zero in the early days!), constant change (but that applies to real jobs too these days).

I was swapping emails with a young entrepreneur in Canada who had her own wine shop but was thinking of selling up because she was earning more online than the shop was making.

I also occasionally communicate with another young woman, this one in Leeds. She has young children and juggles looking after them with her IM activities. She made more than £20k in her first year.

Even though times are looking bad in the current economic climate, there are also amazing opportunities for intelligent young people with the determination to 'go for it'.

I'm just starting to make some money doing IM. I haven't really been putting my full effort into it yet, but to give you an idea of what is possible - this review averaged about £1/day for me in December/January. TBH, the review is a bit waffly. I could have made it shorter and more effective but I just wrote what I wanted to write and moved on to something else. I've gone back and updated it a couple of times since then.

The Christmas spending rush boosted earnings, but I reckon it still makes me about £125 a year. It only took a couple of hours to put together and it should carry on earning money into the future. Imagine having a couple of hundred of little money-earners like that on the go simultaneously!

Another suggestion - sign up for the Amazon Kindle Direct Publishing programme. You are an English student - write! There is no editorial review. Your eBook will be published as long as it is your work and doesn't break the rules (obvious stuff - no promotion of paedophilia, terrorism etc.). If you keep the price below $10, you get a 70% royalty. You don't have to write a long best-seller. Write 100 short works which sell, say, 1 copy a week at $9.99 and you'd be making 100 x $9.99 x 0.7 ~ $700 or £450 a week.

My message is this - don't think that you need to wait for someone to give you a job - you can build your own business!

When I'm feeling down, I reread this:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

 

[mgarl10024]

Actually, it's not just for really difficult areas and it's not amazing, it's just how our country works. It's rife in all manner of areas and people not only offer and apply for very competitive internships but a lot of places actually charge... People are very resistant to believing this goes on as they can't believe how quickly things have changed (you obviously being a very good example) and it's also very depressing that such basic positions they are taking advantage of people. I would also say that your idea of equating software with much of the rest of the jobs market is a bit on the weird side at the very least.

I remember, whilst at uni, I had the chance to do a placement during my 3rd year which I would complete and then come back and do my final year. Most of these placements were paid (usually £11k-£14k) and had to be seen as beneficial to the student (not just a tea boy). Some were free, but these were often under-subscribed and generally ignored - students would rather just go on to their final year.
Around this, between my first and second years, I did some voluntary work experience with a local IT company. I worked with the wife of the IT Manager in my part time job, and she passed on my details. I went there once a week during the Summer and ended up writing some code which the business used.
I personally found both experiences beneficial and would recommend them.

I saw, and still see, internships as pretty rare (thanks for the term, I couldn't remember it earlier!). I see them more for careers that are extremely difficult to get into (fashion, finance, banking, etc.). I do struggle with these, especially if they are paid for - not because not everyone has the money - but because the business is profiting from the employee paying to do work for them! I think someone seriously needs to take a second look at their business model for example if the only way they can survive is if the employees pay to be with them!

Finally, I do tend to equate the software market with most others. I guess this is because it is what I am used to, but also because I don't think it's too different from others. It has people, skills, a market value, etc. In many ways, it's the same as being any other white collared worker. The only difference is that other industries aren't being ravaged so much by the threat of outsourcing.

 

[Adasta]

Ah, internships.

I did one with a reputable political magazine. The atmosphere at that place was vile. It petrified me to think people work under those conditions: bullying, intimidation, insane deadlines, no respect. I was expected to work for free but had expenses paid for (my travel to work). Lunch was not provided. I didn't learn that much in the way of new skills; what I did learn was that I never want to be a slave to my job.

Internships provide very little. It is little more than slavery. Business can - and do - operate "rotating internships" whereby they never actually hire an admin assistant, they just get interns in for 3 months, turf them out, and get another one in. It seems as if they are exploiting a loophole in employment law. The trouble is that supply outstips demand: there is always someone who will do ridiculous jobs like that just for "experience".

I have enough experience to do most entry-level jobs. That doesn't mean anyone wants to hire me, though!

P.S. ColinJ - I'd never though of IM before. It definitely sound interesting and I'll be looking into it later on. Sadly, this afternoon is all about filling in applications forms for various coffee shops, high-street chains etc.

 

[ColinJ]

ColinJ - I'd never though of IM before. It definitely sound interesting and I'll be looking into it later on.

When you do, you will very quickly discover that because there is potentially so much money in IM, you will come across tens of thousands of self-hyped 'gurus' trying to sell you 'the secret to IM success'. Ignore them!

I'd suggest that you make a list of all the subjects that you are really interested in, and can write about in an interesting and informative way. There has to be the potential to make money, so a significant number of people must be searching for information and/or products related to those subjects. You must also be able to find reliable suppliers offering those products at reasonable prices and offering affiliate commissions.

An obvious example would be Amazon.com/Amazon.co.uk. You could write book reviews and offer your affiliate links to the pages on Amazon where those books are for sale. Here's the first such example I could find. Books don't cost a lot from Amazon, and you'd only get 4%-9% commission on them, so an awful lot of people would have to buy books via your reviews to make a significant income, but they might also buy other things on Amazon while they are at it. Those impulse buys would also make you money. You could make over £5 a time selling Kindle eBook readers; they are currently a big seller, so there is obviously money to be made there.

Good luck!

 

[marinyork]

Ah, internships.

It's good to come across someone with a bit of sense and not in denial about things. Chapeau to you.

Sorry to hear about the stuff you wrote. Unlike others I can't offer a I'm all right jack line. It's like that for a whole generation of people in their 20s. I was turned down four times for the exact job at that site I'd done before. There are a lot of people out there with 5,10,15, 20 years experience who are unemployed and applying for the jobs that you and I did. It's not helped that a lot of jobs available to previous generations and the routes aren't available, job specs are getting a lot more credentialised and formalised and employers getting a lot more picky. I got my very low paid job that I currently have by accident and chance after a vaguely similar history to you.

 

[marinyork]

I remember, whilst at uni, I had the chance to do a placement during my 3rd year which I would complete and then come back and do my final year. Most of these placements were paid (usually £11k-£14k) and had to be seen as beneficial to the student (not just a tea boy). Some were free, but these were often under-subscribed and generally ignored - students would rather just go on to their final year.
Around this, between my first and second years, I did some voluntary work experience with a local IT company. I worked with the wife of the IT Manager in my part time job, and she passed on my details. I went there once a week during the Summer and ended up writing some code which the business used.
I personally found both experiences beneficial and would recommend them.

I do have trouble keeping up with where you get some of these strange ideas from (including Maths comments earlier). A sandwich year or term/placement isn't the same thing at all, very clearly not. And I've known plenty of people who've done Sandwich years. If you want to make a vague distinction sandwich placements are done BEFORE the end of university (or between that and further study). Some people see this as qualitatively different to after graduating where you should be progressing (however slowly) in work rather than doing something that'll help your employability. The other one being that internships have swept the UK in the last three or four years from almost nowhere.

It can be a very positive thing doing voluntary work, the issue isn't that, it is the how to get into it. Many voluntary positions are as competitive to get into as many jobs were not so long ago. There is this really out of date idea out there that employers welcome voluntary work and it's easy to come by if you show the right attitude. It is not generally the case at all. It's seen as a 'burden' and them doing a favour for you and then this rapidly evolves into exploitation. The thing you should find 'scary' about internships is the whole formalisation of voluntary work partially blocks out exactly the sort of thing you did.

I saw, and still see, internships as pretty rare (thanks for the term, I couldn't remember it earlier!). I see them more for careers that are extremely difficult to get into (fashion, finance, banking, etc.). I do struggle with these, especially if they are paid for - not because not everyone has the money - but because the business is profiting from the employee paying to do work for them! I think someone seriously needs to take a second look at their business model for example if the only way they can survive is if the employees pay to be with them!

They aren't rare any more and they aren't just for careers that are extremely difficult to get into (this went back many years, you can see exactly where it emerged from). In future it may well become a standard route into employment even for some very basic jobs. These organisations can survive paying for them, they just have a lot of power and the jobs market is particularly bad so they can get away with it.

Finally, I do tend to equate the software market with most others. I guess this is because it is what I am used to, but also because I don't think it's too different from others. It has people, skills, a market value, etc. In many ways, it's the same as being any other white collared worker. The only difference is that other industries aren't being ravaged so much by the threat of outsourcing.

I would say it's very different. In many white collared jobs it's not the skills that matter perse or ability to get the job done but whether it passes the job specification and competency test in the interview. In software I reckon there's a lot more respect for self taught or pseudo self-taught people from a variety of backgrounds. That's certainly not the case in most white collar jobs, it's all about conformity and any skill you have that can't be accounted for with ticks and competencies in an interview with be laughed at.

 

[Adasta]

It is reprehensible for volunteer work to be marketed (and that's what the government is doing - marketing) as "a way to keep busy if unemployed". It demeans the whole notion of charity.

 

[Fiona N]

A know it's not exactly a career move but what about temping agencies?

The two periods I've had between other things, I was able to get jobs through a temping agency in Leeds (Manpower, I think).

The first time was for about 9 months while waiting for my student visa for studying in Australia and after a few very short term, and soul-destroying, assignments (a day in Midland bank cheque clearance, 2 days covering for a receptionist, a few days packing widgets etc.) I was sent to a Mercedes Benz dealership that needed help with their stock take and, in particular, putting the stock onto the new computer system (tells you how long ago it was, they were using a manual stock system for car and truck parts - those were the days). It turned into a great job for the remaining 7 months - not well paid as the agency creamed off their cut, but it was great fun as when they realised I could actually find the correct part on the microfiche (do you young'uns know what microfiche are?) for both cars and trucks, I just became a regular member of the parts dept and they offered me a permanent job in the end but I went off to Oz as planned (it was an interesting place as the head of the parts dept was a woman - imagine it in 1981 - who was an acknowledged UK expert in finding parts for old & classic mercedes sportscars).

The second temping spell was quite a few years later, and shorter, but again after the miserable, grit-your-teeth to get to the end of the day jobs, I got an assignment with a instant credit agency which doesn't sound wildly exciting but they'd just changed credit reference database to a new company in Nottingham. The program we used was still full of bugs (beta version would be a compliment) and the others in the office were completely scared of computers - all they wanted was a blue screen with boxes to fill in and a yes or no result at the end (the idea was the shops would ring up, give customer's info and get an answer straight away on credit or not) - so they used to get me to ring the Nottingham company, sometimes everyday, to give them the latest run down of bugs and glitches. After a while I started suggesting better ways to organise the screens and make the program easier to use. The credit agency offered me a full-time job as a shift manager after about 2 months by which time I'd already tuned down a job with the Nottingham database people. I joined BP's Research Centre instead and frankly, I'm not sure it was the right move although I did learn a lot.

So I have always had the idea that temping might be a way to work your way into a permanent job. The temping agency seemed to gain confidence with me as well - I said I was computer literate (usual office software), could type well (fairly fast and accurate - hard to believe now) and could operate the standard office equipment including receptionist's switchboards so I did a lot of short office placements at first but more interesting stuff as they realised I really was handy with a computer. OK there's dross along the way (counting widgets into plastic bags in a draughty hanger in east Leeds had to be the pits) but if you can show what you're capable of when you find somewhere you think you could work for a while, it would at least give you breathing space to look for a 'proper job' or, like a number of other people have said, a bottom of the heap job can be turned into something better one you've got your foot in the door.