How much faster would "x" make me?

[Dusty Bin]

Oops wrong again! Specialized have done extensive aerodynamic testing in conjunction with McLaren and it has been consistently shown that when riding in a bunch you are actually in 'cleaner' air than when at the front or in a solo TT.

Manufacturer-sponsored research? Gotta love it. Suprised you are falling for it.

The 'dirty' air is channelled around the bunch and is at the back.

Er, no. The turbulent air is in the bunch, as well as around it. Of course it is. We don't ride in a vacuum.

Why do you think that all the Pro's will use deep section aero wheels in anything but the hilliest of races.

Don't bring the pros into this. Their kit choices are largely influenced by their sponsorship deals.

I'm sure you would find the recent articles produced by Specialized very informative and enlightening, might I suggest you read them before arguing with those who have! So, I stand by all that I have said previously.

Got any links?

I didn't win five consecutive National Championships without understanding a bit about good aerodynamics, but thanks for your input.

Congrats, but your 5 titles don't make you correct - although they do appear to make you arrogant..

 

[Scoosh]

MOD NOTE:
Please do NOT derail this thread by going off-topic and arguing.

If you wish to continue the discussion about who-knows-more-about-clean-air, start another thread.

Thanks

 

[Dusty Bin]

MOD NOTE:
Please do NOT derail this thread by going off-topic and arguing.

If you wish to continue the discussion about who-knows-more-about-clean-air, start another thread.

Thanks

Maybe you could clarify - the thread title is 'how much faster would 'x' make me' and we are having a discussion about how much faster people would go (or not) with aero kit. So where exactly is the 'off topic' bit..?

 

[gds58]

Manufacturer-sponsored research? Gotta love it. Suprised you are falling for it.

It was actually general research to see how products can be improved and they actually found a different manufacturers wheels were fastest!

Er, no. The turbulent air is in the bunch, as well as around it. Of course it is. We don't ride in a vacuum.

Er no it isn't. I'm not stupid and am aware that we don't ride in a vacuum (breathing would be a tad tricky!) The air within a bunch is 'carried along' and is quite still which is why it can be up to 40% easier riding within a bunch than on your own. This is why riders in Team Time Trials ride very close to the rider in front (in the air pocket)

Don't bring the pros into this. Their kit choices are largely influenced by their sponsorship deals.

To an extent yes, but they ride what works best. Sponsorship deals generally dictate brand not product specifics, so what they use will generally be what is best for a particular situation. Mark Cavendish for example will often insist on changing his rear wheel to a deeper faster one if there is a likelihood that he will be contesting the sprint. His choice not his sponsors.

Got any links?

No, it was in two different publications but I'm sure you could find it online if you were inclined to.

Congrats, but your 5 titles don't make you correct - although they do appear to make you arrogant..

Yep, probably. I'm very proud of what I achieved and I like to think I can give good advice to others to help them achieve good results or improve their riding.

 

[Dusty Bin]

The air in a bunch is not 'still' - I've no idea where you got that from. The area behind each rider is effectively a low pressure area, which is the bit that makes drafting easier - but the fact that there are loads of gaps in between each rider in a group means that the air in general is anything but still.

Cavendish's rear wheel choices are more likely to do with the additional rigidity provided by a deeper section rim, as opposed to any aero advantage.

 

[gds58]

The air in a bunch is not 'still' - I've no idea where you got that from
I got that from my own experiences of road racing in races all over Europe - something I doubt you have ever experienced yourself
Cavendish's rear wheel choices are more likely to do with the additional rigidity provided by a deeper section rim, as opposed to any aero advantage
That's not what he told me last week when we chatted about this very thing. The deeper section is faster and every tiny little bit makes a difference when you might be measuring a stage win in millimetres. That's also why he chooses to wear an Evade aero helmet as the little extra energy he saves during the stage translates into more power at the end.

I'm kind of done with this now as it is clear that you will continue to have the last word even though it will be based on little or no experience or knowledge of the subject.
Thanks very much, it was interesting

 

[Dusty Bin]

I'm kind of done with this now as it is clear that you will continue to have the last word even though it will be based on little or no experience or knowledge of the subject.
Thanks very much, it was interesting

Your arrogance is astonishing. I ask you for evidence and you can't find any - and yet you continue with this mantra of "I must be right, cos I am awesome" - the weird thing is, you don't seem to see a problem with that. The ability to ride a bike fast does not automatically qualify you as being invincibly correct all the time. This could be a useful discussion, were it not for your patronising tone.

Incidentally, Cav's deep section being 'more rigid' and 'faster' are not incompatible from a sprint pov. What did Cav actually tell you then? Surely that's gotta be worth sharing with the group?

 

[gds58]

Your arrogance is astonishing. I ask you for evidence and you can't find any - and yet you continue with this mantra of "I must be right, cos I am awesome" - the weird thing is, you don't seem to see a problem with that.

What did Cav actually tell you then? Surely that's gotta be worth sharing with the group?

You are incredible! I never said I couldn't find any evidence, if you care to look back you will see that I stated that I read it in two different articles in publications. One I think was in Rouleur and the other I cannot remember the title but a similar genre of magazine. At no point have I said 'I'm right because I'm awesome' merely imparting some knowledge from my own personal experiences, which happen to be quite extensive. So no, I don't see a problem with that. And, in answer to your last question, I have already told you what Mark said to me, so I consider that shared! I'm certainly not intending to share everything I talk to him about, on here. Those conversations are private and most of it that's nothing to do with anybody else will stay that way.

 

[Dusty Bin]

Ironic, you calling me 'incredible', when nothing you've said so far seems to be supportable. Magazine articles are not evidence. Personal experience is anecdote, not evidence. Science is evidence. Science, or GTFO. Come on mate - you're supposed to be a 'Technical advisor to Team GB' - surely you can do better than this?

As I said just now - what Cav told you last week (presumably on the phone from Argentina - unless you were there with him) is not evidence either - and unless you can shed more light on that, then it's just another meaningless name drop.

Do you mind me asking - what years did you win your five consecutive titles?

 

[VamP]

Entertaining as the exchange is, I have to say @gds58, that you are not coming out of this victorious so far. Browbeating and name dropping doesn't come across too good, basically.

@Scoosh - that was a bit of random mod noise??

 

[gds58]

Entertaining as the exchange is, I have to say @gds58, that you are not coming out of this victorious so far. Browbeating and name dropping doesn't come across too good, basically.

@Scoosh - that was a bit of random mod noise??

1. I wasn't aware that this was a competition
2. Not name dropping at all, merely passing on some info from somebody who is the most driven and practical person I have ever met and who would never do anything that wasn't for a good reason.
3. Certainly not 'Bullshit' as mentioned earlier just proven FACT and if you either don't agree or believe it TOUGH as it matters not one bit to me. I don't ever 'bullshit' just tell it how it is whether you like it/agree with it or not.
Mod Edit. Deleted

Thank you and Goodnight

 

[VamP]

 

[Dusty Bin]

1. I wasn't aware that this was a competition
2. Not name dropping at all, merely passing on some info from somebody who is the most driven and practical person I have ever met and who would never do anything that wasn't for a good reason.
3. Certainly not 'Bulls***' as mentioned earlier just proven FACT and if you either don't agree or believe it TOUGH as it matters not one bit to me. I don't ever 'bulls***' just tell it how it is whether you like it/agree with it or not.
4. Dusty Bin = Dick

Thank you and Goodnight

It's not a competition, but it is a discussion in which you have singularly failed to provide any evidence to support your 'facts' - despite being asked several times. For someone claiming to be a 'technical advisor to team GB' (it says so on your profile page, I'm presuming you are not advising the netball team), I would not have expected this to present too many problems.

Further, for someone who is clearly proud of his 'five consecutive national titles' you seem fairly guarded in providing further info on them.

 

[Scoosh]

Maybe you could clarify - the thread title is 'how much faster would 'x' make me' and we are having a discussion about how much faster people would go (or not) with aero kit. So where exactly is the 'off topic' bit..?

I will clarify.

This thread is about a Calcuator a new CC Member has designed and is entitled

How much faster would "x" make me?

The member has requested feedback on what other things might be added to his Calculator.

It is NOT a thread to be arguing about who is right/ wrong about the effects of 'clean/turbulent air' in a group riding situation.

If you wish to discuss that topic - start another thread, as I have instructed.

And stop the personal name-calling and abuse.

 

[VamP]

I will clarify.

This thread is about a Calcuator a new CC Member has designed and is entitled The member has requested feedback on what other things might be added to his Calculator.

It is NOT a thread to be arguing about who is right/ wrong about the effects of 'clean/turbulent air' in a group riding situation.

If you wish to discuss that topic - start another thread, as I have instructed.

And stop the personal name-calling and abuse.

With all due respect, I would say that the impact of clean/turbulent air on the performance of deep section wheels in a group riding scenario was precisely the kind of issue that sucha calculator would have to take into account.

The name-calling is unnecessary, but it does seem like you are pulling up the wrong party for that particular crime.

Are there mod qualifications?