I came off

[ColinJ]

Rooster1 has probably got me on 'ignore' now, but apologies if my posts came across as critical - they were intended to be helpful!

As for recovering from rear wheel skids ... I was referring to the straight line version.

Effective braking is normally done with the front wheel but when road conditions are slippery that really isn't a great idea because when things go wrong they go VERY wrong VERY fast.

If you have got yourself into a situation where you HAVE to brake and the road is slippery then you just have to go for the rear brake, and that can result in a rear wheel skid. That was what happened to me in the situation described above where I was descending a 10% hill with a wet road surface and suddenly found myself confronted by a red light and cars passing in front of me! I had misjudged the situation due to inexperience, but at least I had enough experience of rear wheel skids to get the resultant fishtailing under control and stop in time.

Nowadays, I play safe and assume that the lights will change, or even that somebody will jump the lights on the main road (which I now know they DO very frequently), so I slow down way before the lights in wet conditions.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Rooster1 has probably got me on 'ignore' now, but apologies if my posts came across as critical - they were intended to be helpful!

As for recovering from rear wheel skids ... I was referring to the straight line version.

Effective braking is normally done with the front wheel but when road conditions are slippery that really isn't a great idea because when things go wrong they go VERY wrong VERY fast.

If you have got yourself into a situation where you HAVE to brake and the road is slippery then you just have to go for the rear brake, and that can result in a rear wheel skid. That was what happened to me in the situation described above where I was descending a 10% hill with a wet road surface and suddenly found myself confronted by a red light and cars passing in front of me! I had misjudged the situation due to inexperience, but at least I had enough experience of rear wheel skids to get the resultant fishtailing under control and stop in time.

Nowadays, I play safe and assume that the lights will change, or even that somebody will jump the lights on the main road (which I now know they DO very frequently), so I slow down way before the lights in wet conditions.

I think you will find it very difficult to skid the front wheel by braking in the rain. Front wheel only is far, far safer than using the back brake only.

 

[ColinJ]

I think you will find it very difficult to skid the front wheel by braking in the rain. Front wheel only is far, far safer than using the back brake only.

On a perfectly clean road surface, in a perfectly straight line, maybe. On a road surface with all sorts of greasy deposits on it, metal drain covers, painted white lines, and potholes to avoid ...

 

[toffee]

I think you will find it very difficult to skid the front wheel by braking in the rain. Front wheel only is far, far safer than using the back brake only.

Are you sure about that. My face took a fair beating from the road surface each time I went over the handlebars as a kid. The brakes on my current bikes are far better at stopping the wheels going round than the ones I had as a kid as well.

Derek

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Are you sure about that. My face took a fair beating from the road surface each time I went over the handlebars as a kid. The brakes on my current bikes are far better at stopping the wheels going round than the ones I had as a kid as well.

Derek

Perhaps you missed the discussion about how you cannot skid the front wheel on good road surfaces by braking hard.

Read through here and perhaps reconsider your stance.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/braking-hard-with-rear-brake.182211/post-3755598

 

[Yellow Saddle]

On a perfectly clean road surface, in a perfectly straight line, maybe. On a road surface with all sorts of greasy deposits on it, metal drain covers, painted white lines, and potholes to avoid ...

It is a mental thing drummed into you as a beginner cyclist.
If you are faced with two options under such conditions, you are still safer using the front brake, I would say. You could use the back brake and convince yourself that you could easily recover from the frequent slide-outs or you could use the front brake and not worry about slide-outs as much but when they happen you need not even attempt correction. Both are evil options. I choose the latter.

 

[ColinJ]

Perhaps you missed the discussion about how you cannot lock the front wheel on good road surfaces?

Don't you mean 'skid'?

It is a mental thing drummed into you as a beginner cyclist.
If you are faced with two options under such conditions, you are still safer using the front brake, I would say. You could use the back brake and convince yourself that you could easily recover from the frequent slide-outs or you could use the front brake and not worry about slide-outs as much but when they happen you need not even attempt correction. Both are evil options. I choose the latter.

You are right in saying that the back wheel is more likely to slip away, but I have recovered from it every time it has happened to me. Well, at least since I learned how to do that from my numerous cinder path practices. I have NEVER got away with a front wheel going from under me!

Anyway, the proper solution is to try to avoid getting into the situation where heavy braking is needed in the wet.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Don't you mean 'skid'?


You are right in saying that the back wheel is more likely to slip away, but I have recovered from it every time it has happened to me. Well, at least since I learned how to do that from my numerous cinder path practices. I have NEVER got away with a front wheel going from under me!

Anyway, the proper solution is to try to avoid getting into the situation where heavy braking is needed in the wet.

Indeed, thanks. Will fix.

 

[toffee]

Perhaps you missed the discussion about how you cannot skid the front wheel on good road surfaces by braking hard.

Read through here and perhaps reconsider your stance.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/braking-hard-with-rear-brake.182211/post-3755598

Think you miss understood what I meant or probably I didn't explain properly. I don't see what stance I had either.

Anyway brake too hard from high speed and the chances are you are not going to stay upright, which ever brake you use.

Derek

 

[EasyPeez]

No need to hide, help is on its way. No lolling either, this is serious stuff.

Here's a rule of thumb for you wrt bicycle, motorcycle and aeroplane tyres.

If the road is harder than the tyre, then the tyre requires no tread.
If the road is softer than the tyre, then the tyre requires tread.

The various "types" of hard road you encounter has no effect on whether you need tread or not.

And how does tyre width play into this? All my instincts are telling me that it's time I changed my (Slick) 28mm 4seasons for my (treaded) 35mm marathon deluxe in order to reduce my chances of slip as the roads become wetter/icier, but am I actually better off sticking to the contis?

 

[Yellow Saddle]

And how does tyre width play into this? All my instincts are telling me that it's time I changed my (Slick) 28mm 4seasons for my (treaded) 35mm marathon deluxe in order to reduce my chances of slip as the roads become wetter/icier, but am I actually better off sticking to the contis?

That is a very good question and what's good for the good is not good for the gander. Cars being goose and bikes being gander, that is.

Lots is known about tyre width, particularly wrt racing cars. Racer cars like F1 have wide tyres so that they can get reasonable life out of them and also so that the heat generated during acceleration, cornering and braking can be extracted/;spread over a larger surface. The same amount of heat is generated whether the tyre is wide or narrow, but if there is more tyre, there is better air cooling and less sudden heat build-up during say a session of hard braking.

This does not translate to your 1962 Raleigh, even though you clearly have strong legs and develop enormous power - almost as much as me.

Yet, width does affect bicycle tyres too. Firstly, a wider tyre has less rolling resistance than a narrow one. The biggest reason, I think, is because the rubber deforms less and has less energy losses (hysterisis) when the tyre is wider. But don't think you can go on making it wider and wider. The sweet spot is probably around 28mm if you stick to a thin, non-armoured, non-armadillo type tyre. Puncture protection just adds thickness which adds hystererisis.

The second reason I think a wider tyre is slightly better is because it may grip better under certain conditions. Note that I'm not saying that there is a difference in the total amount of friction available in a narrow or wider tyre of the same compound and structure. Friction - therefore cornering ability or stopping distance remains exactly the same for wide and narrow. But, if you have a contact patch of 200mm^2 on your 28mm (wide) tyre and a contact patch of 150mm^2 on your 20mm wide tyre and you corner over a tiny slick of oil of 100mm^2, you will have 100mm^2 in reserve on the large tyre and just 50mm^2 on the narrow tyre. Should the 50mm^2 thus just not be enough to keep traction, you will slide on the narrow tyre but not the wider tyre.

But have a careful look at the scenario. It is pretty unlikely and probably far-fetched. Also note that the relationship between tyre width and contact patch size is not linear with the increase in tyre width. A 40mm tyre doesn't have a contact patch twice the size of a 20mm tyre. The increase is quite a bit less than doubling. There's a nice graph to demonstrate this in the article that Colin J linked to earlier on in this post.

You may or may not be better off sticking to your Conti's. The wider tyre will NOT give you better traction unless the road is softer than the tyre. That's not the case in city commuting. Wider tyres give you benefits such as pinch-protection and comfort, which narrow ones don't.

I would like to hear what others, as well as @PhilDawson8270 thinks of my "traction in reserve theory" for wider tyres.

 

[Johnno260]

Perhaps you missed the discussion about how you cannot skid the front wheel on good road surfaces by braking hard.

Read through here and perhaps reconsider your stance.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/braking-hard-with-rear-brake.182211/post-3755598

where in the UK can I find this fabled good road surface? :-)

 

[mjr]

I would like to hear what others, as well as @PhilDawson8270 thinks of my "traction in reserve theory" for wider tyres.

I agree with @Johnno260 - many arguments are far too reliant on good road surfaces which seem to exist less and less with government cutbacks and 85% of what highway maintenance budget remains typically spent on A and B roads which are the least fun for cycling. This means that even in urban areas, loads of streets are thick in fallen leaf mulch until traffic has mashed it enough for it to wash away.

I think wider tyres give riders much more chance of part of the contact patch being on a bit of road which isn't totally covered in winter shoot and thereby giving enough grip. I feel 32mm may be the sweet spot for flexible tyres (including kevlar-lined) and 37mm for modern armoured ones.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I agree with @Johnno260 - many arguments are far too reliant on good road surfaces which seem to exist less and less with government cutbacks and 85% of what highway maintenance budget remains typically spent on A and B roads which are the least fun for cycling. This means that even in urban areas, loads of streets are thick in fallen leaf mulch until traffic has mashed it enough for it to wash away.

I think wider tyres give riders much more chance of part of the contact patch being on a bit of road which isn't totally covered in winter shoot and thereby giving enough grip. I feel 32mm may be the sweet spot for flexible tyres (including kevlar-lined) and 37mm for modern armoured ones.

Forget about identifying a road surface as good or bad - even though it was I who introduced the word good. I now regret it.
Think instead of the rule of thumb posted above.

Is the road harder than the tyre? If yes, ride slicks. If no, fit tread.

And a special case rule of thumb for the leaves scenario. Will your tread punch through the soft leaves to make contact with something harder underneat it? If no, ride slicks. If yes, fit such tyres if you can find them.

Guys, please stop whining about the quality of British roads. They are good. If you disagree, go have a holiday in a third world country. Ride a bike there if you dare.

 

[ianrauk]

please stop whining about the quality of British roads. They are good

And compared to roads in Europe, the roads in the UK are a disgrace.