"I can't help it if a cyclist falls over"

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GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Have a read of the defence barrister's CV and weep. My bet is this case will be added to his tally when it is next reviewed.
 
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glenn forger

glenn forger

Guest
R v Rattan [2009 – 10] – drink driving
The defendant, a retired professor, had been found unconscious, in a pool of his own blood, on the floor of a
property he was having renovated. After receiving some first aid from his builder, his next recollection,
several hours later, was of being stopped by the police while driving a high performance BMW that was not
his own, with an unknown young Polish blonde in the seat alongside him. He was belligerent towards the
officers at the roadside and at the police station and refused all medical treatment. He was three times over
the limit. The defence on non – insane automatism succeeded before a district judge through the deployment of lengthy and complex reports arising from the retrospective analysis afforded by an eminent
consultant neurologist. The case also featured extensive cross – examination over the alleged incompetence
of the FME and custody sergeant – Stratford Magistrates Court.

Janick-Fielding.jpg


"Young Polish blonde"- presumably a female, Mr Fielding doesn't bother to distinguish. These eastern Europeans, eh?
 
It means you make things up. You originally explained how anxious you were to avoid looking as if you are victim-blaming, then you make up something that isn't true in order to imply the cyclist was at fault. Go away.

I am not victim-blaming. I have been consistent in putting the blame for this incident squarely at the door of the driver on the basis of all that I know.

I find your attack-dog harassment of me slightly creepy, stalkerish and vindictive. I have tried to add constructively to this thread, which deals with a tragic instance many of us will have seen the like of. I have apologised for misinterpreting the quote you pulled me up on and have corrected myself.

The incident was tragic, the outcome of the court case is puzzling. I do not imply anywhere that the cyclist was at fault. I do note that there is plenty in the press coverage that would lead a jury to return a Not Guilty verdict. There is and they did.
 
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SamC

Well-Known Member
Location
Manchester
More details on the case here: -
http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/news.php?id=1354657

This quite from the judge defense lawyer is infuriating me: -
Summing up, Mr Fielding said: “Ben Pontin said it was a stupid decision to overtake. It was nowhere near as stupid as Mr Pontin’s decision to put Denisa Perinova on that bike in the first place.
“He ought not to have been so reckless with the life of his young girlfriend and he failed with terrible consequences.”


So cycling on a country lane is now more stupid than overtaking on the wrong side of the road in a car!!! :angry:

That quote makes me more furious than I can express in words. It makes me want to grab Mr Fielding by the throat. I'm on an observer, and reading that makes me practically incoherent with rage.
 

Origamist

Legendary Member
Drivers kill more vulnerable road users, and each other, every day. The jury in this case judged it an 'accident'.

Which is astonishing. Overtaking on a bend without clear sight lines of approaching traffic is akin to playing Russian roulette with the lives of fellow road users.
 
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glenn forger

glenn forger

Guest
That quote makes me feel a bit sick. It's like saying the attack on a black person was the black person's fault for being there. Dr Helen Measures decided to overtake through a narrow gap directly at two oncoming cyclists, and her defence is it was the stupid cyclist's fault for being there.
 

Chris Norton

Well-Known Member
Location
Boston, Lincs
Beggers belief, but rest assured next time it could well be a hgv in which case she'll be dead.

We are really held in little regard by the general public despite cycling being as popular as it is now.

The defence barrister was just doing his job, as seedy as it gets, he just gets around it all.

I would like to read the transcript's though.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Which is astonishing. Overtaking on a bend without clear sight lines of approaching traffic is akin to playing Russian roulette with the lives of fellow road users.
Defence barrister sold it to them and the jury fell for it. And the jury will mainly be drivers. Drivers who play similar Russian roulette games themselves with alarming regularity.
 

Dan B

Disengaged member
Well, sh'it does happen. That is one of the first lessons in life. But I don't think it's the lesson that was planned in this case.
(Boris) <--------------------------- country mile --------------------------------> (my point)

To reiterate: if the court has reached a verdict of not guilty on the evidence available to it, yet we the public find this verdict inexplicable on the basis of the more limited evidence available to us, and if we make the assumption that the verdict was the correct one, there is some important piece of evidence which has not been vouchsafed to us in the reporting of this case. And given that some members of the public who start from a different viewpoint ("it was only a cyclist", "shouldn't have been on the road", "accidents happen" etc etc) will be perfectly happy to assume that the reports did include all the salient facts and thus that it is indeed OK to drive on the wrong side of the road into novice cyclists causing them to fall off and die, this is not just a matter of nosiness on our part into something that doesn't affect us, it is actually a serious matter. Because it's not OK to drive on the wrong side of the road into novice cyclists causing them to fall off and die, or at least it shouldn't be, so there really is a moral duty on people involved in court cases which appear to give a contrary impression to come out and tell us why the obvious conclusion is the wrong one. Otherwise, more people driving on the wrong side of the road into novice cyclists causing them to fall off and die, which doesn't seem to me like a desirable outcome
 
(Boris) <--------------------------- country mile --------------------------------> (my point)

To reiterate: if the court has reached a verdict of not guilty on the evidence available to it, yet we the public find this verdict inexplicable on the basis of the more limited evidence available to us, and if we make the assumption that the verdict was the correct one, there is some important piece of evidence which has not been vouchsafed to us in the reporting of this case. And given that some members of the public who start from a different viewpoint ("it was only a cyclist", "shouldn't have been on the road", "accidents happen" etc etc) will be perfectly happy to assume that the reports did include all the salient facts and thus that it is indeed OK to drive on the wrong side of the road into novice cyclists causing them to fall off and die, this is not just a matter of nosiness on our part into something that doesn't affect us, it is actually a serious matter. Because it's not OK to drive on the wrong side of the road into novice cyclists causing them to fall off and die, or at least it shouldn't be, so there really is a moral duty on people involved in court cases which appear to give a contrary impression to come out and tell us why the obvious conclusion is the wrong one. Otherwise, more people driving on the wrong side of the road into novice cyclists causing them to fall off and die, which doesn't seem to me like a desirable outcome

This is a post with which it is difficult to disagree and I have no wish to do so. The part I highlight is completely in line with my thinking. I do not think my post (#157) was as far from yours (#154) as you suggest in your graphic, but I cannot disagree with the core sentiment of the above.

One of the things that gets my goat when I'm riding alone or with one of my offspring is when cars enter my lane to overtake when we are clearly present and riding towards them. The horror is not lost on me. My kids are older and wiser and ride with verve now, but one still has those momentary visions of bad things straight after a close pass. It seems to be a part of parenthood.

I've been clear all the way through this thread that drivers (all drivers) need to be aware that some cyclists are novices and may respond differently to a perceived threat. In this case there is a suggestion (cyclist witness Alison Bell) that the fall was not connected with or caused by the overtaking car, but whether that is the case or not it does not alter the absolute that the decision to pass was a very poor one and may well have been the primary cause of the fatality. I agree with you that we don't know enough about the evidence to understand why the jury disagreed.

Nonetheless, the verdict was as it was and has not (yet) been challenged. Nor did the judge express any surprise that it was as it was. The court records are there. The transcripts are there. We are discussing this on the basis of some flimsy reporting (some of it supporting a particular viewpoint) in the media.

It is the job of the media (if they choose to take it) and of campaign groups (who ought to feel the obligation) to challenge this verdict if it is a poor one and to do so on the basis of all the evidence presented in court. This discussion (some of it understandably aggressive in tone) is based on a partial picture formed by partial reporting.

Broadly, I agree with your post. If it was an injustice (and it may have been), then this will be proved or at least challenged by a vigorous campaign by parties who have access to all the evidence submitted.
I fear such a challenge will not come. The fury will stay on the Internet and dissipate slowly like a stale fart. The tragedy will stay with all involved and nothing will take away the ache.
 
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