I think it may be time for a new frame...

[Ming the Merciless]

The frame currently needs to be opened out about 3-4mm to put the wheel in. Theoretically a shorter axle and a shorter spacer on the non-drive side would resolve the problem, but wouldn't that mean the wheel was no longer central to the axle?

Wheel not dished properly then? Plus you need to cold set the frame, assuming steel, it is easy to do. The length of the axle should not effect that, the ends of the axle each side, should sit inside the dropouts, not extend beyond like in the days of nuts.

 

[Ajax Bay]

• You aiui are trying to squeeze a 130mm OLN axle into the dropouts designed for a 126mm axle.
• This results in both chainstays bending and remaining under stress. The strain may not be equal if one chain stay is weaker.
• Both the frames described as replacements sound as if they are 130.
• Some measuring seems required.
• You've suggested removing an axle spacer. This may need a QR skewer for a 126 axle (as opposed to the current 130). The wheel would then need dishing (by 2mm more) and this might mean a weaker wheel than I'd use for touring.
• Be aware that this will increase the 'spare' mm of (threaded) axle both ends. See what the current 'spare' is (which lodges in the quasi-horizontal dropout) and be sure that an extra 2mm would not mean the resultant axle 'stub' doesn't extend beyong the dropout. If it does, the QR will no fasten the axle securely.
• Another approach is to revert to a 6sp block and freewheel (different wheel) suitable for the frame.
• Why is the 11t sprocket wearing out before any others? Sounds as if your large(st) chainring is way too small (ETA: it's an MTB chainset so 42t large chainring.)
• Because you're squeezing this 'too wide' rear axle in, the chainline is shifted 2mm at rear. And this combined with your overuse of the smallest sprocket is thus increasing (smaller) sprocket wear. For consideration (am assuming an ST BB) use a BB with a longer axle (+4mm) to shift the rings out, first checking that the FD would reach out that extra 2mm. This is a smaller issue than the rest.

 

[Mike Ayling]

You aiui are trying to squeeze a 130mm OLN axle into the dropouts designed for a 126mm axle.
This results in both chainstays bending and remaining under stress. The strain may not be equal if one chain stay is weaker.
Both the frames described as replacements sound as if they are 130.
Some measuring seems required.
You've suggested removing an axle spacer. This may need a QR skewer for a 126 axle (as opposed to the current 130).
Then the wheel would need dishing (by 2mm more) and this might mean a weaker wheel than I'd use for touring.
Another approach is to revert to a 6sp block and freewheel (different wheel) suitable for the frame.
Why is the 11t sprocket wearing out before any others? Sounds as if your large(st) chainring is way too small.

11t sprocket wear, that's was my first thought!

 

[Elybazza61]

I'd go with the Japanese lugged (Mayata maybe?) if it's a nice as it sounds and will probably be easier to accommodate more 'modern' parts without too much faff.

 

[Illaveago]

I'll take pictures and let you decide. The Japanese one is a very pretty lugged chromoly frame, while the other is from a VSF Fahrradmanufaktur T400; these are chromoly frames have a very good reputation in Germany and are much beloved of hard core adventure cyclists.

Both are almost certainly better than the frame I'm using now, but because of the sentimental value of this frame I'm hesitating.

Rest assured the current frame won't be thrown away; more likely it will be repainted and repurposed in some way, probably as decoration in my flat.

I was going to say keep your old bike and use the replacement.

 

[MontyVeda]

Also, from what we could see, the problem was that the dropouts didn't allow the axle to sit straight at the end point.tug nuts can help compensate for this but only to a point.

unless I'm missing something, tug nuts will compensate to the point of perfect alignment. If the end points of the throat aren't equal then you may only need one to compensate for the discrepancy.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Many thanks again for the suggestions. Posts like this are at the same time very encouraging, because I learn new solutions to apparently insurmountable problems, but also sometimes frustrating because there is so much to learn...

Wheel not dished properly then? Plus you need to cold set the frame, assuming steel, it is easy to do. The length of the axle should not effect that, the ends of the axle each side, should sit inside the dropouts, not extend beyond like in the days of nuts.

Point taken re: Cold-setting; I remember seeing pictures of someone cold-setting a frame. It looks simple, although I don't know how you can be sure the two sides are "adjusted" to the same distance.

You aiui are trying to squeeze a 130mm OLN axle into the dropouts designed for a 126mm axle.
This results in both chainstays bending and remaining under stress. The strain may not be equal if one chain stay is weaker.
Both the frames described as replacements sound as if they are 130.
Some measuring seems required.
You've suggested removing an axle spacer. This may need a QR skewer for a 126 axle (as opposed to the current 130).
Then the wheel would need dishing (by 2mm more) and this might mean a weaker wheel than I'd use for touring.
Another approach is to revert to a 6sp block and freewheel (different wheel) suitable for the frame.
Why is the 11t sprocket wearing out before any others? Sounds as if your large(st) chainring is way too small.
Because you're squeezing this 'too wide' rear axle in, the chainline is shifted 2mm at rear. And this combined with overuse of the smallest sprocket is thus increasing (smaller) sprocket wear. For consideration (am assuming an ST BB) use a BB with a longer axle (+4mm) to shift the rings out, first checking that the FD would reach out that extra 2mm. This is a smaller issue than the rest.

See my comment above about "so much to learn": It's sometimes hard to learn this at work because most of the training is about modern bikes.

The new frames are both 130mm, as they both had a modern 8 or 9 spd freehub cassette in them when they arrived.
I get on very well with my Shimano 8/3 bottom bar shifters, so I'm not keen to change tpo a 6 spd but that's useful information if a customer brings a similar bike.

I seem to ride most of the time in the 11t sprocket on this bike, not something I've experienced before on my heavier longtail. I'll check the chainwheel: the bike is an old MTB, and I just re-mounted the old chainwheel and mechs on the front with a new rear mech. I'm quite sure your disagnosis is correct there. As you say though this is a relatively minor issue.

unless I'm missing something, tug nuts will compensate to the point of perfect alignment. If the end points of the throat aren't equal then you may only need one to compensate for the discrepancy.

I doubt you're missing anything, but we may be speaking about two different things. When I talk about a "horizontal dropout" I mean one of these:

I don't know how well tug nuts would work on this: I have them on my Bakfiets, but that has a frame designed for them to fit. I mean a "short term fix" in the sens that they somewhat defeat the point of QR skewers, and it would still be a bit if a faff to change a tyre on the road. In reality, I use Marathon plus tyres and change them when they finally wear out, but still...

 

[Andy in Germany]

I'd go with the Japanese lugged (Mayata maybe?) if it's a nice as it sounds and will probably be easier to accommodate more 'modern' parts without too much faff.

Yes, I recall it is a Mayata, and very lovely it looks too: the 400t frame is much newer though, and VSF have a formidable reputation for frame building.

 

[MontyVeda]

...
I doubt you're missing anything, but we may be speaking about two different things. When I talk about a "horizontal dropout" I mean one of these:


View attachment 822242
...

that ain't horizontal by any stretch of the imagination

 

[Mike Ayling]

that ain't horizontal by any stretch of the imagination

Agree

 

[Punkawallah]

that ain't horizontal by any stretch of the imagination

There’s always one :-) You’ll be telling us next that you can’t cross a river on the Seat Stay Bridge!

 

[Mike Ayling]

Many thanks again for the suggestions. Posts like this are at the same time very encouraging, because I learn new solutions to apparently insurmountable problems, but also sometimes frustrating because there is so much to learn...



Point taken re: Cold-setting; I remember seeing pictures of someone cold-setting a frame. It looks simple, although I don't know how you can be sure the two sides are "adjusted" to the same distance.



See my comment above about "so much to learn": It's sometimes hard to learn this at work because most of the training is about modern bikes.

The new frames are both 130mm, as they both had a modern 8 or 9 spd freehub cassette in them when they arrived.
I get on very well with my Shimano 8/3 bottom bar shifters, so I'm not keen to change tpo a 6 spd but that's useful information if a customer brings a similar bike.

I seem to ride most of the time in the 11t sprocket on this bike, not something I've experienced before on my heavier longtail. I'll check the chainwheel: the bike is an old MTB, and I just re-mounted the old chainwheel and mechs on the front with a new rear mech. I'm quite sure your disagnosis is correct there. As you say though this is a relatively minor issue.


I doubt you're missing anything, but we may be speaking about two different things. When I talk about a "horizontal dropout" I mean one of these:


View attachment 822242


I don't know how well tug nuts would work on this: I have them on my Bakfiets, but that has a frame designed for them to fit. I mean a "short term fix" in the sens that they somewhat defeat the point of QR skewers, and it would still be a bit if a faff to change a tyre on the road. In reality, I use Marathon plus tyres and change them when they finally wear out, but still...

I hated those 45 degrees downward dropouts.

Definitely bin that bike!

 

[All uphill]

Yes, I recall it is a Mayata, and very lovely it looks too: the 400t frame is much newer though, and VSF have a formidable reputation for frame building.

If you want to use the bike as a tourer, or for utility rides I'd go with the VSF. It's probably better suited to that role, whereas the Miyata is probably a lighter frame.

You'll just have to build that up into a light day tourer.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Talked to Elder Son, and he's happy for me to swap the frame, so I can start building.

If you want to use the bike as a tourer, or for utility rides I'd go with the VSF. It's probably better suited to that role, whereas the Miyata is probably a lighter frame.

You'll just have to build that up into a light day tourer.

I think you're probably correct. Will have a look at the two frames tomorrow at work.

 

[Andy in Germany]

I had a look as the T400 today, and it has the same style of dropouts, which makes sense as VSF Fahrradmanufaktur sell hub and derailleur bikes, but I don'tr want to faff about with a "horizontal" dropout any more, so the focus is currently on the Japanese frame. For some reason I had a brain fart up thread, It's not a Mayata, but a "Kuwahara". Has anyone heard of this?

The frame seems to be a bit bigger than my current one; I think it may have a horizontal top bar instead of a sloped one.

The fork angle looks a bit extreme, but that may be the photo and not having a wheel in them making it look odd.

There's another feature which is either very neat or a weak point:

The rear chain stays are connected to the saddle tube either side of the cut which allows the tube to clamp the seat post. I've seen that occasionally, but not with the bolt going through the chain stays.

I'm trying to persuade myself this won't cause any weakness in the frame; can anyone with more experience advise?

I'm also not sure what that little lug on the right of the picture is for: I think it was connected to the cantilevers. I'll file it off as I'll be using V-Brakes.

Oddly I've also found a 28" wheeled VSF bike frame that is Chromoly, lugged, and has vertical wheel drops, so I'll keep an eye on that for future projects...