Idiot cyclist - Beeston road, Leeds

[domd1979]

Hi vis certainly isn't the be all and end all, but it certainly helps from a safety point of view. Not particularly bright this time of year really is it?!!

I am sure that Hi Vis has a place, but it is not the be all and end all of safe cycling and wearing it does not automatically make you a responsible cyclist. In bright conditions for instance you will stand out far more wearing black than yellow.

 

[domtyler]

Hi vis certainly isn't the be all and end all, but it certainly helps from a safety point of view. Not particularly bright this time of year really is it?!!

I am not convinced that it helps much, if at all. I would be pretty surprised if you could provide any empirical evidence that wearing it lessens your chances of being involved in an accident. That said, I do have a yellow jersey that I was wearing while the evenings were murky and dim. Now it is dark in the evenings it has been put away again as it is next to useless in the dark, especially where you have lots of street lighting. Like I said, it may have a place in certain situations but I rarely rely on it personally.

 

[summerdays]

As a child I was told to wear light coloured clothing after dark to help myself be seen. I still don't get the arguement that you shouldn't wear hi-vis ... when I'm out and about I always notice those wearing hi-vis and light coloured stuff much easier than those dressed head to toe in black. Also the hi-vis usually has reflective bits on too... surely every little helps.
I agree wearing hi-vis is not going to prevent me from doing something stupid. I don't think I cycle any differently when I wear hi-vis than when I don't. I also don't want any motorist to be able to claim ... that I was dressed in black and was hard to be seen.

 

[bonj2]

Tut...Arch you should know better than to question RLJ pavement riding transgressors of the law but I am sure bonj will upbraid you on your puritanical streak sooner or later

yeah, Arch - are you sure she wasn't just a pedestrian who happened to be propelling a bike which she happened to be carrying underneath her?

A good point dom.

I cycle in black kit, because I think it looks cool and it matches my bike. I keep one of these in one of my jersey pockets as it folds up tiny. I do quite a lot of cycling along B-roads which can have lots of dappled shade - from personal experience a cyclist in black just disapears in that, a HV vest on at that point makes a huge difference to visibility.

agree - if i had to choose between either a high vis vest or rear light on unlit B-roads, i'd choose high vis vest. (Obviously I do have both)
It's just that it's a bigger thing in the driver's field of vision, and given that a driver has got his lights shining at you, which they undoubtedly will have, then it's just as bright/visible as a light almost. The combination of red light and high vis reflective yellow vest makes it obvious that you're a cyclist.

 

[Arch]

yeah, Arch - are you sure she wasn't just a pedestrian who happened to be propelling a bike which she happened to be carrying underneath her?

We so need a 'sticking your tongue out rudely' smiley.



RPM, obviously hi-vis isn't going to protect you from numpties. And obviously reflective is better than just bright yellow, or flourescent, at night. That's why I have a yellow coat with a waistcoat over it in yellow with reflective stripes. Your post gives the impression that you mean black with reflectives is better than yellow with reflectives - do you actually mean black with reflectives is better than yellow with none - in which case I agree...

And I stay as vigilant as ever, no matter what I'm wearing.

 

[andy_wrx]

agree - if i had to choose between either a high vis vest or rear light on unlit B-roads, i'd choose high vis vest. (Obviously I do have both)
It's just that it's a bigger thing in the driver's field of vision, and given that a driver has got his lights shining at you, which they undoubtedly will have, then it's just as bright/visible as a light almost. The combination of red light and high vis reflective yellow vest makes it obvious that you're a cyclist.

Jacomus said

B-roads which can have lots of dappled shade

so he was talking about wearing hi-viz in daylight...


I think we need to differentiate between

• high-viz (dayglo yellow, orange, pink, whatever) which is designed to make you more visible in daylight
• reflectives which are designed to reflect headlights at night
• lights which will allow you to see or be seen at night or in poor visibility

Wearing simple yellow high-viz won't make you more visible in the pitch dark. It will show-up a bit better in car headlights than black/dark grey/navy blue/etc but it's really designed for daylight use so wearing a yellow jacket without reflectives is great in daylight or poor daytime visibility but probably doesn't achieve a lot at night.

At night, reflectives is rather better but as RPM suggests it won't matter too much if they're on yellow or black clothing.
What they do need to be is proper big reflective patches - those farty little reflective bits most clothing manufacturers put on I can't see being much use at all because they're too small.

Lights can flash or be steady, can be weakish things to allow others to see you if you're cycling a streetlamp-lit road or need to be a lot stronger if they're to allow you to see an unlit country lane.


Bonj says

The combination of red light and high vis reflective yellow vest makes it obvious that you're a cyclist.

- he wants to be recognised as a cyclist

That's a debateable point - on another thread BentMikey said that's the last thing he wants, he just wants to be seen as 'another vehicle' (I think the phrase was something like that, sorry if not Mikey!).

I can see what he means if cycling in town, where I want to be treated as another vehicle, another part of the traffic, given the same room, etc and not just seen as a bike which can be squeezed into the kerb or pulled-out in front of.

But most of my nighttime cycling is on unlit country lanes or rural derestricted A- & B-roads.
I do want to be seen as a bike. I want some car or lorry coming-up behind me to recognise that I'm a bike doing 20mph compared to their 60 and so they're going to catch me quickly, so they need to be pulling-out to pass me if they can or adjusting their speed to pass me after the oncoming car or bend.
I don't want them seeing a small steady light and assuming I'm something in the distance then suddenly catching me.
So I use 2 lights front & rear, one flashing which says I'm a bike and another steady one which allows distances and speed to be better jusdged from the rear and me to see where I'm going at the front.
As well as relective kit !

But as others have said on here, you can't dress yourself up as a high-viz, reflective, multi-lighted Christmas tree and then simply rely on other people to see you.
You have to look where you're going, look or hear what others are doing and try to keep yourself safe.

 

[Plax]

Hi-Viz is definitely better to be seen in. A non-cycling work colleague commented to me a few months ago that I was easily seen way before she overtook me "unlike the idiot further along wearing all black". I think my work colleagues additude is indicative to most non-cycling car drivers.

Now that darkness and the cold is upon us on our commute home, I have swapped my yellow windstopper for a grey altura nevis jacket. So I now use my hi viz rucksack. Bright yellow with plenty of reflective strips. I use two lights on the front and two on the back. One set in flashing mode and another on steady. Much easier to see me on all the B roads than the muppet that wears black with no reflective gear and crap budget lights.

 

[BentMikey]

Once you have legal reflectors and lights, being seen is about road positioning, not hi-viz. Too many people rely on their spacker jackets and not on riding properly in the first place. Just think back to how many people on here complain about drivers not seeing them when they were all hiviz and lighted up.

I've noticed a decrease in personal incidents since I stopped wearing hiviz, and I'm not the only cyclist to have done the same. Yes, it's only anecdotal.

Target fixation is another good reason not to wear hiviz. Have you seen the size of the hydraulic crash bumpers on the back of motorway sign vehicles? You don't get any more visible than that.

Hiviz is probably great at making you visible from a very long way away, in the right conditions. That's not very important to cyclists though, you only need to be seen from a relatively short distance away and there you're just as visible without hiviz.

if i had to choose between either a high vis vest or rear light on unlit B-roads, i'd choose high vis vest.

IMO that's completely the wrong decision. Stupid even. The fluo part of high vis doesn't work at night as it needs UV, and the reflective part only works if the observer has a light very near them and shining towards you. If not, you'd be invisible, unlike with the rear light.

 

[BentMikey]

I accept that everyone has their own view on what's "responsible" though, I just try to do the best I can to stay alive

My point being that it's wrong for you to imply that it's irresponsible not to wear hiviz.

 

[bonj2]

Jacomus said
so he was talking about wearing hi-viz in daylight...

yes true, sorry i drifted on to using it at night.

I think we need to differentiate between

• high-viz (dayglo yellow, orange, pink, whatever) which is designed to make you more visible in daylight
• reflectives which are designed to reflect headlights at night

• 
  well what I use is a jacket which incorporates both of those things, made of 'yellow dayglo' material and with reflective strips which reflect headlights.
  
  

  [*]lights which will allow you to see or be seen at night or in poor visibility

Wearing simple yellow high-viz won't make you more visible in the pitch dark. It will show-up a bit better in car headlights than black/dark grey/navy blue/etc but it's really designed for daylight use so wearing a yellow jacket without reflectives is great in daylight or poor daytime visibility but probably doesn't achieve a lot at night.

yes, true. it's mainly the reflective strips i wear it for, but it's just a convenient way of wearing them. A sash would probably be almost as good, but more fiddly to put on.

At night, reflectives is rather better but as RPM suggests it won't matter too much if they're on yellow or black clothing.
What they do need to be is proper big reflective patches - those farty little reflective bits most clothing manufacturers put on I can't see being much use at all because they're too small.

they've got to be at least an inch wide imho.

Bonj says
- he wants to be recognised as a cyclist

That's a debateable point - on another thread BentMikey said that's the last thing he wants, he just wants to be seen as 'another vehicle' (I think the phrase was something like that, sorry if not Mikey!).

yes, I'm aware his position goes along those lines. Can see the logic to it, but see my reply to him below.

I can see what he means if cycling in town, where I want to be treated as another vehicle, another part of the traffic, given the same room, etc and not just seen as a bike which can be squeezed into the kerb or pulled-out in front of.

But most of my nighttime cycling is on unlit country lanes or rural derestricted A- & B-roads.
I do want to be seen as a bike. I want some car or lorry coming-up behind me to recognise that I'm a bike doing 20mph compared to their 60 and so they're going to catch me quickly, so they need to be pulling-out to pass me if they can or adjusting their speed to pass me after the oncoming car or bend.
I don't want them seeing a small steady light and assuming I'm something in the distance then suddenly catching me.
So I use 2 lights front & rear, one flashing which says I'm a bike and another steady one which allows distances and speed to be better jusdged from the rear and me to see where I'm going at the front.
As well as relective kit !

same here, that's pretty much exactly my situation and also my perspective on it.

Once you have legal reflectors and lights, being seen is about road positioning, not hi-viz. Too many people rely on their spacker jackets and not on riding properly in the first place. Just think back to how many people on here complain about drivers not seeing them when they were all hiviz and lighted up.

I've noticed a decrease in personal incidents since I stopped wearing hiviz, and I'm not the only cyclist to have done the same. Yes, it's only anecdotal.

Target fixation is another good reason not to wear hiviz. Have you seen the size of the hydraulic crash bumpers on the back of motorway sign vehicles? You don't get any more visible than that.

Probably correct, and a great idea, for your situation, but not everyone's riding is as urban as yours, so needs differ based on circumstances.
In london, they can see the road really well when they're looking at it, but there's lots of bright lights and things to see to distract drivers' attention so yes like you say the best way to be seen is to be in the correct position. I try to pay attention to this when cycling in the city centre.
But on a rural road, especially when cars coming up behind have got other cars' headlights coming the other way in their field of vision, I want them to know there's a cyclist ahead i.e. me as in advance as possible, which means they can plan ahead for slowing down if necessary and when to overtake in advance, the more in advance they know about me the less likely they are to react dangerously by making a too close overtake to avoid having to slow down sharply. Knowing there's a cyclist ahead in advance involves them (a) knowing that there's something ahead, and ( knowing that it's a cyclist.

Hiviz is probably great at making you visible from a very long way away, in the right conditions. That's not very important to cyclists though, you only need to be seen from a relatively short distance away

When traffic is doing 15mph, maybe. When traffic is doing 40-60mph, a short distance represents a much shorter time to make sure they don't overtake dangerously.

IMO that's completely the wrong decision. Stupid even. The fluo part of high vis doesn't work at night as it needs UV, and the reflective part only works if the observer has a light very near them and shining towards you. If not, you'd be invisible, unlike with the rear light.

sorry, when I say hiviz i mean reflective, 'cos my high viz vest has also got big reflective strips on it which is why I wear it.

"reflective part only works if the observer has a light very near them"
very crudely speaking, but if at night someone hasn't got a light near them pointing at you, then chances are they aren't driving towards you.

My point being that it's wrong for you to imply that it's irresponsible not to wear hiviz.

I agree with that, I just choose to 'cos I think it makes me safer, based on my experiences as a cyclist and as a driver having seen other cyclists both in reflective high viz jackets and without.

 

[BentMikey]

"reflective part only works if the observer has a light very near them"
very crudely speaking, but if at night someone hasn't got a light near them pointing at you, then chances are they aren't driving towards you.

It happens more easily than you would think. What about a driver at a side road? He wouldn't get any reflection from you traveling along the major road because his lights aren't shining at you.

I take your point on the higher speeds of a more rural road, but I still am not sure hiviz would improve safety in this situation. I would prefer to rely on lights, myself. It's not as though I only ride in London, I live way out in Biggin Hill and have done a fair bit of country riding even when I lived further in towards London.

 

[Arch]

It happens more easily than you would think. What about a driver at a side road? He wouldn't get any reflection from you traveling along the major road because his lights aren't shining at you.

The answer to this being, fit a front light on your bars facing back towards your chest, to illuminate your reflective stripes. I remember a while back there was a light prototyped that cast a light forward and one back at the riders chest, but I don't know that it took off. Just as simple to have a backupz type light mounted rearfacing... Angle it right, and it won't dazzle you.

 

[BentMikey]

The answer to this being, fit a front light on your bars facing back towards your chest, to illuminate your reflective stripes. I remember a while back there was a light prototyped that cast a light forward and one back at the riders chest, but I don't know that it took off. Just as simple to have a backupz type light mounted rearfacing... Angle it right, and it won't dazzle you.

LOL! Isn't there some sort of angle limit on retro-reflectives? I thought it was very small, on the order of a few degrees. That would mean you'd have to be surrounded by a halo of lights shining at your coat.

 

[Arch]

LOL! Isn't there some sort of angle limit on retro-reflectives? I thought it was very small, on the order of a few degrees. That would mean you'd have to be surrounded by a halo of lights shining at your coat.

It wasn't meant to be funny...

I'd have thought it would work - even if it didn't utilise the full retro-reflective effect, it would lit your chest up, and make you more visible. Anyway, I can see how I could easily get a small light to shine directly at one of the scotchlite strips on my waistcoat, even if it didn't illuminate them all.

I shall try it next time I'm out in the dark.

 

[BentMikey]

From wiki:

A retroreflector is a device that reflects a wave front back along a vector that is parallel to but opposite in direction from the angle of incidence. This is unlike a mirror, which does that only if the mirror is exactly perpendicular to the wave front.

However, a pedestrian can see a retroreflective surface in the dark only if there is a light source directly between them and the reflector

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroreflector

Ergo there's no point in having your own light illuminating your own reflector, unless you can contrive to place that light directly between the observer and your reflector. I would also say it's perhaps not the cleverest thing to do to have lights permanently shining towards you and thus affecting your night vision.

Hence my assertion that you may as well have proper legal lights and reflectors only, and not all that hiviz stuff.