Idiot politicians - who elects them?

[ComedyPilot]

cyclists should be forced to wear fluorescent jackets emblazoned with a registration number, much like a car.

I don't break the law, I don't break highway code 'rules', I aren't a danger to myself or other vulnerable road users, and frankly I am very sick of my pastime/transport mode/hobby being hijacked by so-called politicians to further their voting pool/cause controversy/promote their bile....

 

[ufkacbln]

Going Butch doesn't for one minute change someones personality or sexuality ...I'm just intrigued as to why someone would want to behave or dress in a masculine way ?

That was not what I was implying Cunobelin.

Lesbian = Genetically a Woman, attracted to other women.
Transgender = Male or female who has had Gender realignment surgery/Hormone treatment and is not living as the gender which they were born with.
I'm amazed you managed to get offended by your misunderstanding of what is being discussed here.
Others just seem to like being offended for the sake of it

This again shows a misunderstanding, please read the article I posted

If a male changes gender to female then that is a choice they make, they are not genetically female, but to all intents and purposes have chosen to act, live and "be" female.

A lesbian relationship or same sex relationship is an appropriate term to describe this.

Your statement that you can only be a lesbian if you are genetically female is ill informed at best

The point is that we do not need to "understand" the way someone acts, chooses to dress, how masculine or feminine they want to appear, who they decide to have a relationship with or whether they consider themselves male or female.... it is a personal decision and often one taken with a lot of deep soul searching, unhappiness and trauma , recognise that and accept them for what they are

 

[Linford]

This again shows a misunderstanding, please read the article I posted

If a male changes gender to female then that is a choice they make, they are not genetically female, but to all intents and purposes have chosen to act, live and "be" female.

A lesbian relationship or same sex relationship is an appropriate term to describe this.

Your statement that you can only be a lesbian if you are genetically female is ill informed at best

The point is that we do not need to "understand" the way someone acts, chooses to dress, how masculine or feminine they want to appear, who they decide to have a relationship with or whether they consider themselves male or female.... it is a personal decision and often one taken with a lot of deep soul searching, unhappiness and trauma , recognise that and accept them for what they are

When a man lives as a woman, but hasn't had the surgery, then you are saying he can be classed as a woman because he has made that lifestyle choice ?

And conversely, a female to male sex change cannot be a true sex change because they cannot anatomically alter the female sex organs to mimic those of the genetic male sex organs...the best they might hope for is a bit of erm.... 'window dressing'

 

[Linford]

Don't be silly. You didn't define what you mean by 'manly' though.

That would be dressing like a bloke, getting a blokey style hair cut, attempting to mimic the manerisms of a bloke with tone of voice and experssion to suit (not in an Alan Carr sort of blokey way) ... sort of the opposite of a Ladyboy/TV

 

[theclaud]

I think Linford's posts in this thread tell us all that we need to know about the fragile, socially-constructed edifice of masculine identity, so I don't propose to get more involved. What was this thread about again, anyway?

 

[coffeejo]

I've just read a lovely PM from someone who said they like me for who I am, as I am.

And after a night of not being able to stop thinking about this thread (thanks for that), I'm starting to wonder if the assertion that it's not about homophobia is correct. I think it's about sexism. I think there are people in this world/community/forum who don't like that some men stop being men and choose to become members of the weaker/lesser sex. They don't like that some women reject men as the objects of their sexual desire. And they don't like women who not only appear to take on so-called masculine traits by "butching" themselves up, but also attract women who should be sleeping with men!

That's just the way I see it.

Which takes me back to that PM. Like many of the things said in this thread, it brought me to tears. But this time in relief. Acceptance for who I am. No questions about my hair cut, choice of clothes, who I do or don't fancy. Just the ability to look past differences and see the things we have in common. And that person - and all the others - are worth 100 of those who are narrow minded and who get on their high horses if you dare to suggest that it's this attitude and not gender/sexuality that makes for a lesser being.

 

[theclaud]

Respect where its due, he's now got the Racist / Misogynist / Homophobe hat trick.

Now?

 

[Linford]

I've just read a lovely PM from someone who said they like me for who I am, as I am.

And after a night of not being able to stop thinking about this thread (thanks for that), I'm starting to wonder if the assertion that it's not about homophobia is correct. I think it's about sexism. I think there are people in this world/community/forum who don't like that some men stop being men and choose to become members of the weaker/lesser sex. They don't like that some women reject men as the objects of their sexual desire. And they don't like women who not only appear to take on so-called masculine traits by "butching" themselves up, but also attract women who should be sleeping with men!

That's just the way I see it.

Which takes me back to that PM. Like many of the things said in this thread, it brought me to tears. But this time in relief. Acceptance for who I am. No questions about my hair cut, choice of clothes, who I do or don't fancy. Just the ability to look past differences and see the things we have in common. And that person - and all the others - are worth 100 of those who are narrow minded and who get on their high horses if you dare to suggest that it's this attitude and not gender/sexuality that makes for a lesser being.

Accepting a person for who they are is not the same as understanding or not understanding why someone would make those life choices.

If you identified with the subject matter, and were offended because of that, then on my part it certainly wasn't intentional or targetted....I've never met you or seen a pic (sorry if you felt it was)

It is more for me just curiosity about how those life choices come about in specific groups, and not that I would expect anyone to look or behave any differently because there is a gap in knowledge or understanding.

 

[coffeejo]

Accepting a person for who they are is not the same as understanding or not understanding why someone would make those life choices.

If you identified with the subject matter, and were offended because of that, then on my part it certainly wasn't intentional or targetted....I've never met you or seen a pic (sorry if you felt it was)

It is more for me just curiosity about how those life choices come about in specific groups, and not that I would expect anyone to look or behave any differently because there is a gap in knowledge or understanding.

What a pity you didn't say that 5 pages ago.

 

[Linford]

What a pity you didn't say that 5 pages ago.

If someone makes a choice to live this way, then that will be a life where others will be puzzled by those choices. At least we live in a society where people might understandably ask these questions, but still gives freedom to exercise this choice....In much of the world, many societies take a totally different approach to trying to understand the differences....they just don't !

 

[Markymark]

Quite how gay people choose to act will influenced by society. For lesbians to butch-up, this will most likely have strong links to how gay people have been treated for decades of being marginalised and adjusting their behaviour to gain further acceptance. I would suggest that how gay people behave(whether being camp, butch, macho) has changed through the centuries and throughout the world as is this case for all other humans.

For example, gay men have typically taken up female characteristics as perhaps as a group they would gain better acceptance. However, after the AIDS epidemic became the focus of media, it became fashionable for some gay men to be seen as strong and macho to show they didn't show some of the characteristics of AIDS sufferers (weaker, thinner etc).

 

[coffeejo]

I've not had nearly enough coffee to get my head around @0-markymark-0's comment, but on the topic of choice, for me, the only choices I make about my gender and sexuality are the same choices that everyone makes, whether they're male, female, straight, gay, bi, from the little choices about clothing/fashion to the ones about whether to respond in the affirmative if asked out, etc.

I did spend most of my childhood wishing I was a boy but as I grew older, I realised that was actually about how little girls were treated and expected to behave - I wanted the right to wear shorts/trousers to school, to play with cars and diggers and climb trees and do all the exciting things that my boy friends did. Aside from periods and risking a black eye whenever I run, I'm happy as a woman. And when it comes to sex, at no point have ever, ever wished I had a penis. So when it comes to my gender, there is no choice for me, just like there's no choice for any of us. I'm just lucky to be in the vast majority whose sense of self fits into the body it was born with.

Despite some rather cruel comments made when I came out, being a lesbian has nothing to do with my parents or my childhood or my preference for climbing (and falling out of) trees. It just is. I've got blue eyes, ridiculously little hands and am sexually attracted to women. I chose to come out, to live my life being honest, but it's not a lifestyle. I know women and men who got married and had kids when they were younger because that's what they were expected to do, and only admitted (or discovered) the truth (for want of a better description) when they were in their 50s or later. I know others who have never slept with a person of the opposite gender.

And whenever I'm asked about that, my answer is simple. How do YOU know your sexual preferences?

HTH

 

[Roadrider48]

Don't be silly. You didn't define what you mean by 'manly' though.

A man! To look like a man. Can you not tell the difference?

 

[Roadrider48]

I've not had nearly enough coffee to get my head around @0-markymark-0's comment, but on the topic of choice, for me, the only choices I make about my gender and sexuality are the same choices that everyone makes, whether they're male, female, straight, gay, bi, from the little choices about clothing/fashion to the ones about whether to respond in the affirmative if asked out, etc.

I did spend most of my childhood wishing I was a boy but as I grew older, I realised that was actually about how little girls were treated and expected to behave - I wanted the right to wear shorts/trousers to school, to play with cars and diggers and climb trees and do all the exciting things that my boy friends did. Aside from periods and risking a black eye whenever I run, I'm happy as a woman. And when it comes to sex, at no point have ever, ever wished I had a penis. So when it comes to my gender, there is no choice for me, just like there's no choice for any of us. I'm just lucky to be in the vast majority whose sense of self fits into the body it was born with.

Despite some rather cruel comments made when I came out, being a lesbian has nothing to do with my parents or my childhood or my preference for climbing (and falling out of) trees. It just is. I've got blue eyes, ridiculously little hands and am sexually attracted to women. I chose to come out, to live my life being honest, but it's not a lifestyle. I know women and men who got married and had kids when they were younger because that's what they were expected to do, and only admitted (or discovered) the truth (for want of a better description) when they were in their 50s or later. I know others who have never slept with a person of the opposite gender.

And whenever I'm asked about that, my answer is simple. How do YOU know your sexual preferences?

HTH

For what it's worth....I never meant to insult or offend anyone. It was supposed to be a genuine question.
If you feel offended by anything I have said here, I sincerely apologise; that was not my intention.
For the record, I am not racist, homophobic, sexist or any other. Sometimes I get carried away and talk bollocks but that's about it.

 

[Roadrider48]

What, you mean like ... wearing trousers? Good grief! You'll be telling me women are allowed to ride bicycles next.

only stepthroughs!