Is a hub gear less bother than a derailleur?

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Profpointy

Legendary Member
Hub gears are said to be lower maintenance than derailleurs, but is that true?

I like to keep the bike maintained properly, but I'm not obsessional about it.

I've never done much to the derailleur bikes I've had, basically the occasional clean and cable tensioning, so I wonder if I would do a lot less to a hub geared bike.

It's a general question, but in my case it's between XT derailleurs or an 11-speed Alfine hub on a hybrid bike for leisure use.

Have to say, i'm not a believer in hub gears, at least not in the old Sturmey archer 3 speeds, having very nearly lost my bollocks on the crossbar on more than one occasion when the wretched thing slipped out of gear grunting uphill in top. Whilst I may or may not have maintained it that well, I was only a kid, and doing a fraction of the mileage I do now and bought the bike new. And on another, admittely clapped out bike, lost all but third gear with 15 miles of a very hilly 45 mile run left to go - was not fixable either. Not impressed! All that said, a Rohloff is likely a whole different level of quality, but serious wonga.

Hywel
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
It will depend on how much 'bother' you take with a derailleur setup and how much gear range you want/need. For anything less than a Rohloff or Alfine 11 then you could easily just run a 1x8 or 1x9 derailleur setup. This could be cheap easy and long lasting with minimal maintenance.

I have Rohloff, SRAM I-9, Alfine 8 and did have a Sturmey 3 speed - wheel removal with a hub gear just means an extra step as you need to disconnect the gear cable before removing the wheel in the normal manner. This is easiest with the SRAM I-9, then Rohloff then Alfine 8 and finally SA 3 speed. Both Rohloff and I-9 are so easy as to be not even a consideration and the Alfine isn't far behind. However rohloff then wins out, for me, on being able to have a QR skewer. There is a weight penalty on anything over the 3 speed but this is only significant with a high end derailleur setup, at the lower end of the scale it's a lot less though still there.

If I'm honest you can go through a long list of pros and cons both ways but for me it really came down to riding style. I tend to favour varying cadence and getting out of the saddle in short bursts so that suits a hub gear. But over and above everything else I love the ability to change gear when not pedalling. In fact I probably make most of my gear changes in this way particularly on familiar routes when freewheeling in preparation for something I know is coming.

Savings on maintenance and replacement parts are a cumulative effect that builds up over time. Eventually any hub gear can pay for itself but this can take years in the case of a rohloff. It also may never be viable if you're talking a simple 1xX derailleur drive train.

Right now a rohloff wheel and all fittings would set you back about £1k an Alfine 11 about £5-600 and an 8 about £250-300. I'm still wary of the A11 though, I recently ordered an A8 and got an A11 in error I was then given the option of keeping the A11 for the price of the A8....I returned it for the A8.


Great post MacB.

I have seen the Avanti Inc 3 which has an Alfine 11 IHG with belt drive and disc brakes which is tempting me. But the lack of bosses on front fork for pannier rack is not, neither the concentric BB instead of horizontal rear drop outs or the matt blak frame colour.

I am also considering a Surly Troll frame and fork, build myself with Rohloff hub, disc brakes, with chain and full enclosing guard to tkeep crud out. But I emailed SJS about a Rohloff wheel build and they told me I need an axle plate £22 even with horizontal drops out and a solid axle with traditional nuts as QR cannot be used according to SJS. What you think MacB? It's either orange (last year), aubergine purple or black for the frame colour.
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
I am also considering a Surly Troll frame and fork, build myself with Rohloff hub, disc brakes, with chain and full enclosing guard to tkeep crud out. But I emailed SJS about a Rohloff wheel build and they told me I need an axle plate £22 even with horizontal drops out and a solid axle with traditional nuts as QR cannot be used according to SJS. What you think MacB? It's either orange (last year), aubergine purple or black for the frame colour.

I'm not a fan of the Surly options for hub gears the only one I rated was the Crosscheck with horizontals and rim brakes. Two of my sons have Karate Monkeys with derailleurs which are great bikes. But I did experiment with putting a Rohloff on one to see how it would fair as an allround tourer. You instantly run into issues with the disc brakes and mudguards for wheel removal and the orientation of the OEM2 axle plate adds complexity as well. The rear caliper mount is slotted to move with the wheel but it means you have to be pretty precise with alignment to avoid rubbing. It is improved on later KMs and the Troll etc as earlier models you actually had to loosen the disc brake caliper to remove the wheel in some positions.

That's not to say it doesn't work very well for some it really depends on the level of faff you can/will tolerate. For me the rohloff attraction was immediately diminished by the need for the OEM2 plate and having to go to a nutted axle. So I decided that if I'd shelled out the dosh on a rohloff then I wanted to maximise the benefit and needed a frame appropriate to this. I would actually rather use vertical dropouts and a tensioner than go back to using track ends with a hub gear.

My personal preference would be a swing style vertical dropout, my frames have the Paragon Machineworks Rockers which places the disc caliper between the stays and allows normal rack and guard fittings. Salsa do production frames with their Swing dropouts and with either sort you can opt for a rohloff specific dropout to accommodate the OEM plate. The Salsa ones place the disc caliper on the seatstay as do most of the sliding dropouts which would be my next choice. After that it would be a toss up between vertical dropouts and tensioner or vertical dropouts and eccentric bottom bracket. But mainly because I have an irrational dislike of an EBB. My final choices would be horizontal dropouts and lastly track ends.

I know Shand cycles offer the rocker dropouts as a build option and they have a reputation, though pricetag to match, that I would trust for any sort of build. I did look at seeing if I could modify a Surly to the different dropouts but it worked out to more than it was worth. If you wanted to supply the dropouts yourself I reckon you could get a frame done for about £700 all in but can't see it being much less.

I use Wheelcraft in Scotland for my wheelbuilds and Big Al there is extremely helpful and will advise and keep costs down for you. If I was buying a Surly frame for a Rohloff then I'd go for a LHT disc version and use an OEM2 plate with a chain tensioner or one of the mini EBBs that fit a standard size shell. I have the LHT disc forks on one bike and they are very nice.

For a custom frame or an off the peg that can come with rohloff dropouts there's Shand, Roberts, Dave Yates, Mercian, Argos, Bob Jackson and plenty of others - most of their rohloff offerings will be standard sliding dropouts or EBBs but I'd imagine they could build with a different style of dropout if requested, I know Dave Yates would.
 

Ningishzidda

Senior Member
No! I generally gear my Sturmey bikes to have a 72" top gear. I don't need anything higher on the sort of routes I usually ride. On Sunday, I was riding 44/22 on a 28" wheeled roadster, all 45lb of it. I also have 46/18 on a 20" wheeled folder, 46/22 on 26" wheeled sports roadster and 46/22 on my 3 speed Kalkhoff road/touring bike.
I have a 20" shopper with 46/20.I have a half link in the chain to get the spindle in a sensible position.
My 26" roadster has 46/24. I like top in the 60s.
 

tyred

Legendary Member
Location
Ireland
I have a 20" shopper with 46/20.I have a half link in the chain to get the spindle in a sensible position.
My 26" roadster has 46/24. I like top in the 60s.

I own a 24t sprocket and really wanted to put it on the Rudge but it doesn't fit in the chaincase.
 

Chris S

Legendary Member
Location
Birmingham
Hello bike people. I have recently bought a genuine dutch bike with 8 speed sturmey archer hub gears. I took it for a test ride and found it very difficult to get past gear 5 on the flat and found it very difficult to get up a very moderate incline in 1st gear. Now I'm not the fittest but could it be that the gears are set too high? Can they be adjusted so that the lowest gear is even lower. I know nothing about gears! Please help!

Sturmey Archer 8-speed hub gear ratios range from 1.0 to 3.2. This is about the same range as a conventional bike.8-speed bike and should give you the same over all performance.

The first thing you should check is your seat height - if it's too low then pedalling will be difficult on any bike. There should just be a slight bend in your knee when the pedal is at the bottom of its range.

Then check that all 8 gears are selecting correctly. This video shows you how to do it:


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-QCrUZ7W88


If all this is correct then you can always lower the gearing on your bike by putting a bigger sprocket on the back. Most SA hubs have 18-tooth sprockets. 22-tooth sprockets are readily available of the internet and make a huger difference. Shimano and SRAM sprockets will also fit Sturmey Archer hubs. Shimano make a 24-tooth sprocket which will lower the gearing even further.
 

snailracer

Über Member
I own a 24t sprocket and really wanted to put it on the Rudge but it doesn't fit in the chaincase.
It's not clear that a hub gear is any less bother than a derailleur until the operating conditions are considered. If a bike is stored outdoors exposed to the elements, a chaincase provides a significant benefit that is not available to derailleur bikes. A derailleur bike that lives a relatively pampered life in a shed, tended by a rider who cleans and oils it regularly, will also provide reliable service.
The reputation of the quality hub-geared bikes of old was also related to their use of hub brakes, 1/8" chain, stout frames, steel rims, materials and finishes that were suited to bikes that were expected to be kept outdoors, etc. - these design features, each of which provides a cumulative measure of added durability, are rather uncommon in the contemporary UK bike market.
So, it's too simplistic to automatically assume that hub gear = less bother. Other design features and the conditions of use will determine how true that assertion is.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
I'm not a fan of the Surly options for hub gears the only one I rated was the Crosscheck with horizontals and rim brakes. Two of my sons have Karate Monkeys with derailleurs which are great bikes. But I did experiment with putting a Rohloff on one to see how it would fair as an allround tourer. You instantly run into issues with the disc brakes and mudguards for wheel removal and the orientation of the OEM2 axle plate adds complexity as well. The rear caliper mount is slotted to move with the wheel but it means you have to be pretty precise with alignment to avoid rubbing. It is improved on later KMs and the Troll etc as earlier models you actually had to loosen the disc brake caliper to remove the wheel in some positions.

That's not to say it doesn't work very well for some it really depends on the level of faff you can/will tolerate. For me the rohloff attraction was immediately diminished by the need for the OEM2 plate and having to go to a nutted axle. So I decided that if I'd shelled out the dosh on a rohloff then I wanted to maximise the benefit and needed a frame appropriate to this. I would actually rather use vertical dropouts and a tensioner than go back to using track ends with a hub gear.

My personal preference would be a swing style vertical dropout, my frames have the Paragon Machineworks Rockers which places the disc caliper between the stays and allows normal rack and guard fittings. Salsa do production frames with their Swing dropouts and with either sort you can opt for a rohloff specific dropout to accommodate the OEM plate. The Salsa ones place the disc caliper on the seatstay as do most of the sliding dropouts which would be my next choice. After that it would be a toss up between vertical dropouts and tensioner or vertical dropouts and eccentric bottom bracket. But mainly because I have an irrational dislike of an EBB. My final choices would be horizontal dropouts and lastly track ends.

I know Shand cycles offer the rocker dropouts as a build option and they have a reputation, though pricetag to match, that I would trust for any sort of build. I did look at seeing if I could modify a Surly to the different dropouts but it worked out to more than it was worth. If you wanted to supply the dropouts yourself I reckon you could get a frame done for about £700 all in but can't see it being much less.

I use Wheelcraft in Scotland for my wheelbuilds and Big Al there is extremely helpful and will advise and keep costs down for you. If I was buying a Surly frame for a Rohloff then I'd go for a LHT disc version and use an OEM2 plate with a chain tensioner or one of the mini EBBs that fit a standard size shell. I have the LHT disc forks on one bike and they are very nice.

For a custom frame or an off the peg that can come with rohloff dropouts there's Shand, Roberts, Dave Yates, Mercian, Argos, Bob Jackson and plenty of others - most of their rohloff offerings will be standard sliding dropouts or EBBs but I'd imagine they could build with a different style of dropout if requested, I know Dave Yates would.

A supremely helpful post MacB. Thank you so much for taking all the time to write it, sharing your knowledge and experience.

Much of what you write I had also thought about especially having a custom made frame made (Roberts Rough stuff or Hewitt) but the cost is prohibitve compared to off the shelf especially when planning to use a Rohloff rear hub which is a cost £1,100 alone. I know one would end up with a beautiful frame such as Roberts can make but it would totally blow my budget at present. Maybe some time in the future. So I have currently ended up at the Surly Troll frame as it has DB mounts (in the right place on the rear for easy rak mounting) and sliding rear drop outs and Surly actually specifically state that they have designed it for those users who want to fit a Rohloff hub although you need to fit the Rohloff hub fixing plate. I would prefer QR but I have been advised that QR is not strong enough to hold the axel in place in a horizontal drop out set up. Plus the Troll has all the bosses/mounts for racks front and rear plus bottle cage mounts. One could even fit a susp fork if one wanted for rough roads ................. The thing I don't like is the bike name. I have looked closely at pics of the frame and it appears in quite small script so will attempt to cover it! What a crap name for a bike. Name selection fail! However I can get the Troll frame for £386.10 in orange 2012 model. A black one (2013) which might be better as black is non descript and wouldn't stand out so much, although I like the idea of orange, for £404.10. The 2013 frames have more bosses/mounts for bottle cages - a third set under the main tube for a bottle and more on the front fork. I also looked at a Salsa Fargo but couldn't see a way to easily fitting a Rohloff, perhaps I was mistaken, but I thought it just wouldn't work plus it's a 29 inch wheel not the best in the back of beyond. The one I really liked was the Civia Bryant - perfect frame even with break in rear drop out for belt drive, strikingly simple solution, neat and really quite clever, but the spec was crap and Civia refused to sell me the frame and fork only. What f%*^&rs! Perhaps they are making so much money they can afford to turn away cash and f^&*£ a customer off. A great business model that is.

Anyway I am hopefully taking a look at a Surly troll frame (16" orange 2012) in the flesh middle of next week. I have never seen one let alone ridden one, so it will be suck it and see.
 
As I have pointed out in other posts I am not totaly happy with my Dawes Nomad and the Alfine 11 hub gear but I am stuck with it, as SWMBO would kill me if I traded it in for a big loss (which I fear is what would happen). It is due for it's first years service in April but I am willing to fetch this forward to March. A question or two for the hub specalists. (1)Is there a bike shop near Carlisle that understands the Alfine hubs (I can travel as far Kendal, Newcastle or Glasgow as they all have direct trains from Carlisle) (2) Can I change the gearing to make it more suitable for hill work (3) I like butterfly bars would these work on the Nomad.
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
Cranky, it may be worth a step at a time for example getting the Rohloff wheel first, I bought a 36h black DB OEM plate version(generally the most expensive configuration) from Bike24 last week and it worked out to £895 shipped. I had them send it directly to Wheelcraft for building and expect my final price tag to be approx £1k including the Rohloff specific disc rotor. This will be built into a Mavic TN719 36h black disc only rim - just to give you an idea of the price differential out there, I reckon that's £200+ less than SJS - however I'm fairly close to Head for the Hills in Dorking so have Rohloff/hub gear expertise nearby.

The Troll will work very well with the Rohloff it just doesn't give me the QR hub gear heaven I wanted :biggrin: But if you invest in a good wheelbuild via somewhere like Wheelcraft, I opt for a tandem strength build, then the wheelset(especially if disc brake) could outlive several frames. I reckon you could do that, build up the Troll and see how you like it. A Troll frame would be fairly easy to shift on if you decide on a change at a later date.
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
As I have pointed out in other posts I am not totaly happy with my Dawes Nomad and the Alfine 11 hub gear but I am stuck with it, as SWMBO would kill me if I traded it in for a big loss (which I fear is what would happen). It is due for it's first years service in April but I am willing to fetch this forward to March. A question or two for the hub specalists. (1)Is there a bike shop near Carlisle that understands the Alfine hubs (I can travel as far Kendal, Newcastle or Glasgow as they all have direct trains from Carlisle) (2) Can I change the gearing to make it more suitable for hill work (3) I like butterfly bars would these work on the Nomad.

I think Kinetics in Glasgow specialise in hubs quite a bit or could at least point you to someone that could help.

Butterfly bars I have a love hate relationship with, they are really comfortable out on the sides but it's really hard, and looks lousy, getting controls out there. That makes the hand position with access to gears and brakes very narrow and I found it the least comfy of the various hand positions available. They are also quite tricky to get reach correct on depending on which model you go for. I now prefer to use a swept back flat bar with stubby barends inboard of the grips and, depending on how big the sweep is, either Ergo grips with outboard barends or just plain Ergos.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
Cranky, it may be worth a step at a time for example getting the Rohloff wheel first, I bought a 36h black DB OEM plate version(generally the most expensive configuration) from Bike24 last week and it worked out to £895 shipped. I had them send it directly to Wheelcraft for building and expect my final price tag to be approx £1k including the Rohloff specific disc rotor. This will be built into a Mavic TN719 36h black disc only rim - just to give you an idea of the price differential out there, I reckon that's £200+ less than SJS - however I'm fairly close to Head for the Hills in Dorking so have Rohloff/hub gear expertise nearby.

The Troll will work very well with the Rohloff it just doesn't give me the QR hub gear heaven I wanted :biggrin: But if you invest in a good wheelbuild via somewhere like Wheelcraft, I opt for a tandem strength build, then the wheelset(especially if disc brake) could outlive several frames. I reckon you could do that, build up the Troll and see how you like it. A Troll frame would be fairly easy to shift on if you decide on a change at a later date.

Thanks MacB.

Don't SJS do good wheel builds? I thought with the large numbers of people who buy their Thorns with Rohloff hubs for expeditions then they would be the place to go or not as you seem to be suggesting.

The wheel rim I was going to use was a Mavic 719 for disc but not sure which one. Was also thinking of a Schimdt Son 28 dynamo hub for the front wheel or maybe just get a Hope Evo 2 hub and use my Max D front lights. It would be cheaper and also mean a ligher front wheel. I am thinking black would be a far better frame colour - unassuming.

Have also seen this Avanti Alfine 11 spd disc brake bike.
http://www.avantibikes.com/nz/bikes/path/urban-road/inc-3/
 
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