Is technology going to far?

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Rob Dudley

New Member
I am writing a dissertation on the term Technology Doping and would like to get your opinions on a few things.

Can technology be classed as a cheating method as it gains the rider an advantage, in the same way as substance doping?

Is the technology in cycling taking over the sport and is it going down a Formula 1 route?

If it turns into a technological war will people lose interest in the sport?

any thoughts and opinions to all or just one of these would be very helpful.

thanks,
rob
 

Wooliferkins

Senior Member
Location
Oxfordshire
I'd have a look at the UCI reg's on bikes used in competition. You'll find quite the opposite is true. In their efforts to keep all bikes equal the UCI are arguably hindering technological advance in the industry.
 

GuardTwin

Active Member
Technology does make things easier for people but they're not cheap, for some who think it is all electronics I like to mention now it is also about material for the bike and rider, if they can make a bike much lighter than it is now for the sport and it was used you will notice who has gotten their lovely hands on it but thanks to rules and regulations they (As mentioned above) hinder technological advantages at some degree.

It is all for fairness, if something small was wanting to change such as a material on the wheel the rider could be disqualified if they chose to ride it but will probably be asked to replace it with a qualified wheel type. (Also it covers health and safety, no use having a glass bottle and you fall smashing the glass screwing up the competitors....even if it will help your team win lol)
 

Ern1e

Über Member
I also agree technology can make things unequal but we also need it to help us out in every day life ie. an awful lot of things tested out in the F1 scene is now standard stuff in the vehicles you use today, so yes we need people to develop equipment etc on the race curcuits in order to help make the bicycles of tommorow better again things like carbon fibre ! think back to when the only material you could get for a bike frame was good old heavy gauge steel lol.
 

400bhp

Guru
Not really.

-Technology, although can be somewhat opaque, is accountable.
-Technology is highly unlikely to cause medical issues for athletes in later life
-Technology is arguably innovative, drug taking isn't.
 

MikeW-71

Veteran
Location
Carlisle
Can technology be classed as a cheating method as it gains the rider an advantage, in the same way as substance doping?

Is the technology in cycling taking over the sport and is it going down a Formula 1 route?
Only if it conferred a distinct advantage to a rider and was not available to others. In reality there isn't anything you can do to a bike that will (for example) make it 5mph faster uphill (OK, an electric motor, but that's way too obvious). It can make bikes nicer to ride, sharpen handling, better braking and transfer power better, but all these things are available to all the riders and teams.

Cycling will never be in an F1 type scenario, as the engine is still a human being and the bike will not go any faster than he/she can power it. Technology on the bike can't change that. Electronic shifting for example is all very nice, but it doesn't give any time benefit against mechanical systems.
 
I'd have a look at the UCI reg's on bikes used in competition. You'll find quite the opposite is true. In their efforts to keep all bikes equal the UCI are arguably hindering technological advance in the industry.
I don't know if you are personally involved in racing, we are and the whole subject of technological doping is a very big can of worms. I am replying to this because last year I attended a lecture on this very subject given by a professor who is at the cutting edge of this type of research.
Quite aside from the aerodynamics and materials of the bike frame, and this is somewhat of a red herring because if you know anything about physics you will also know that rider aerodynamics are by far the the most important. Which leads onto the subject of the rider, and the big question that poses the most controversy, certainly in amateur racing, is how can it be fair if some riders are able to afford wind tunnel testing, altitude tents, power meters, top coaches, etc etc, while others have no access to these advantages as a result of not being able to afford them.
It was always thus, the GB track team for instance are testing a new material for their skinsuits that they hope will shave a few tenths off, which of course could be the difference between a gold medal and no medal. Interestingly you will remember the swimmers did the same thing with a special swim suit only for it to be banned a couple of years later. You may well ask therefore, is there a moral issue here.
Believe me, it is immensely frustrating when you coach a talented athlete who cannot reach the top step of the podium because they do not have access to the latest technological advances.
It is not a level playing field and I doubt it ever will be, but so much more could be done to at least iron out the bigger lumps.
 

booze and cake

probably out cycling
Hi Rob, RE: Can technology be classed as a cheating method as it gains the rider an advantage, in the same way as substance doping? Is riding the TDF geared as opposed to on a singlspeed cheating? Looking at a TDF route gears definitely give a significant advantage, if only one team were allowed gears and everyone else ran singlespeeds I would class that as cheating, but then you get into legal definitions as to what is significant. However cycling has been going for over 100 years and I don't think there are any amazing technological breakthroughs that will give massive performance advantages. Look at team Sky, a big team with huge resources, but I can't think of any groundbreaking single discoveries they have made that give a major advantage. Instead they are looking at marginal gains such as air flow around seamless skinsuits, nutritional analysis and even bedding for riders, nothing major on its own but they seem convinced the accumulative effect of tiny gains can yield worthwhile improvements. Innovation may not be free but all are free to innovate (within the UCI regs), if another team thinks there may be merit in what Sky have done they can copy it.

Smaller teams may not be able to do everything the big boys do but thats the nature of competetive sports, there are big fish and little fish in all sports. As such a level playing field does'nt really exist but it should be the job of the governing body to ensure it is level enough to give the little guys a chance of winning. I'd like to think anything that massively enhances the chance of success but was hugely cost prohibitive so only 1 or 2 teams could afford it would be outlawed. F1 is increasingly doing this with fewer engine manufacturers and trying to reduce costs to help the smaller teams. Afterall sport that is not competetive isn't fun to watch. The technology in terms of the bikes and components are affordable by all the pro teams, I guess kit choice is mostly dictated by sponsors first, followed by experience and personal preference, so there is no real advantage on the tech front, many bikes are made in the same factories but just with different stickers and the components are just different brands of the same things.

Having said that the thought of the sponsor having an overriding say on equipment over team experience and personal preference rankles with me, maybe as I'm a middle aged cynic often annoyed with the modern world, but it seems wrong to me that marketing and branding are more important than actual performance. I'm not a massive fan of pro cycling but I was aware that Wiggins and others had big issues with digital shifting this year that cost them time over the traditional alternatives, and seemingly offered little, if any, performance benefit. I'm sure this was'nt mentioned as a possibility by the fancy suited marketing person/sponsor. Was'nt there some other problem with Wiggins not being allowed to use his favoured oval Rotor chainrings in a race this year? When you talk of technology in cycling taking over the sport, do you mean just pro level racing or does that include leisure cyclists? If Wiggins' brand new bike maintained daily by the team mechanic breaks he can just throw it down a ravine and get another one from the team car, if I had a Di2 bike and I'm out on a ride on my own in December cold and wind and the shifting breaks, I don't have that option and I'm not going to be a happy bunny.:cursing: I'm less concerned by weight and looks and more by reliability and so are most cyclists.

There is no denying the advances in cycling over the years and the obvious trickle down effect of technology from the pro peloton to the general cycling public. The TDF is a cycle marketers dream and some R&D is done during the race. Despite this, I still feel a cynicism about the claims of the marketing department and I don't really share their drive to constantly buy the newest latest thing but I pick and chose. I don't own a carbon fibre bike (if someone wants to give me one I'll happily give one a go) but have invested in index shifters and dual pivot brakes. I've had fancy wheels with low spoke counts but found them more trouble than they were worth and have reverted back to simpler longer lasting wheels. And I'm clearly not alone, steel frames are still being made and some people still swear 8 or 9 speed lasts longer and shift more reliably than the current crop of 11 speeds. There are even some people still riding penny farthings, so I don't think technology in cycling is taking over the sport, there is room for all of us. Its easy to lose sight of the fact on dedicated cycling forums but the majority of cyclists are simply not that bothered by the latest cycling developments and just cycle to get from A-B, or to help them get and keep fit. Affordability has always been one of the key benefits to cycling, most of us cannot afford or would never consider spending £8000 on a bike. If people want to thats great, good for them, and I'm glad there is such a wide range of choice available, but the majority of cyclists exist at the other end of the spectrum and the bike manufacturers know this. There may be a high end technological warfare between bike brands but this is aimed at the top 1-2% of cyclists, we've all encountered bike and kit snobbery but you don't need an expensive bike or kit to become a better cyclist. And what is a better cyclist and does everyone want to become one? Cycling will not become an elitist sport any time soon. Therefore I don't think there is a danger of people losing interest in the sport as the majority of cyclists don't have an interest in it in the first place.

I'm a keen cyclist that rides pretty much everyday but Chris Froome riding my rubbish bike will still thrash me riding his bike, which shows that overall the single most important element to pro cycling success is the cellular organism sat on the saddle. You've only got to look at the very long history of doping in cycling to see the significance and benefits rider doping gives, and with such big benefits and rewards doping seems destined to feature in cyclings future too.

Which brings me to thinking about overlaps between the technological advantage and substance doping. As already stated I don't think there are dramatic improvements available to the bike, which means that any future technological avances will focus on getting the best out of the human element, but isn't that what doping is? Where is one stopping and the other one starting? We have a blood passport to detect doping but is technology not already being used to monitor and manipulate blood values? If technology is doing the testing, surely technology can also be developed to beat the testing. It seems to me teams can dope to pre-agreed 'acceptable' levels. Following the Lance Armstrong fraud we now know that never testing positive does not equate to did not dope. In theory Sky's marginal gains could all be complete guff and the recent results Sky have achieved could just as easily be explained by undetected doping.

OMG:eek: I've written all that offline and its only now I've uploaded it I've seen how long it is, that must read as an epic Tour de Bore so sorry about that. I'm no expert in any of this and am just thinking out loud but due to the pesky infiltration of technology into my life I am able to voice this rambling across the whole world, for better or worse you decide, but I hope you can pick something of use out of that.^_^
 

Wooliferkins

Senior Member
Location
Oxfordshire
I don't know if you are personally involved in racing, we are and the whole subject of technological doping is a very big can of worms. I am replying to this because last year I attended a lecture on this very subject given by a professor who is at the cutting edge of this type of research.
Quite aside from the aerodynamics and materials of the bike frame, and this is somewhat of a red herring because if you know anything about physics you will also know that rider aerodynamics are by far the the most important. Which leads onto the subject of the rider, and the big question that poses the most controversy, certainly in amateur racing, is how can it be fair if some riders are able to afford wind tunnel testing, altitude tents, power meters, top coaches, etc etc, while others have no access to these advantages as a result of not being able to afford them.
It was always thus, the GB track team for instance are testing a new material for their skinsuits that they hope will shave a few tenths off, which of course could be the difference between a gold medal and no medal. Interestingly you will remember the swimmers did the same thing with a special swim suit only for it to be banned a couple of years later. You may well ask therefore, is there a moral issue here.
Believe me, it is immensely frustrating when you coach a talented athlete who cannot reach the top step of the podium because they do not have access to the latest technological advances.
It is not a level playing field and I doubt it ever will be, but so much more could be done to at least iron out the bigger lumps.

This applies to all sports though. Anytown CC may have the next Don Bradman but they may not be able to afford to play him at county/regional level and have access to the facilities/technology the next level provides. Cycling is fairly unique in that a world class rider has to ride a bike set up in a way that actually doesn't fit him due to the regulations on bike sizing. There are now two versions of The Hour because the UCI deem the machine must pretty much matches Merckx's 1972 Colnago Mexico. Their pettifogging during the Boardman/Obree era killed the hour as a competition. It is only 2 years since disc brakes were sanctioned in cyclocross, hydraulic calipers on road bikes were sanctioned this season for the first time. As pro bikes have to be available to buy on the high street the vast majority of utility bikes still sport 1940s derailleur technology when a modern hub gear and Burrows monofork design is far more practical for every day use as the major manufacturers investment goes into UCI approved tech.
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
This applies to all sports though. Anytown CC may have the next Don Bradman but they may not be able to afford to play him at county/regional level and have access to the facilities/technology the next level provides. Cycling is fairly unique in that a world class rider has to ride a bike set up in a way that actually doesn't fit him due to the regulations on bike sizing. There are now two versions of The Hour because the UCI deem the machine must pretty much matches Merckx's 1972 Colnago Mexico. Their pettifogging during the Boardman/Obree era killed the hour as a competition. It is only 2 years since disc brakes were sanctioned in cyclocross, hydraulic calipers on road bikes were sanctioned this season for the first time. As pro bikes have to be available to buy on the high street the vast majority of utility bikes still sport 1940s derailleur technology when a modern hub gear and Burrows monofork design is far more practical for every day use as the major manufacturers investment goes into UCI approved tech.

This is not really the case! He/she might have to compromise and not ride the fastest or most efficient position possible, however it is not a case of a bike simply not fitting.

Additionally, in the extreme and unlikely case a piece of equipment can not be made to fit a rider, then mitigating circumstances may be granted.
 
I like to see innovation/ development but it does irk me when I can see someone who is obvously better competing against (when they should be beating) somebody on better technology. When I'm dictator of the world, I think I would allow technology for individual world record attempts and insist on uniformity for multi athlete competitions :scratch:
 
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