Is this the driver of the car's fault?

[Slick]

I'd like to add a comment here if I may: I, and no doubt everyone else who manages to ride without being knocked off by a vehicle, ride defensively. That being the case, is there some degree of responsibility that could be reasonably laid at the door of the cyclist in this case? Riding - or falling - down an incline heading in the direction of an intersection at some 28 MPH with the possibility of a car either being at the intersection or might approach the intersection seems to be irresponsible. I always make eye contact with drivers, I always slow at intersections unless I have a wide view of the area as I near, and I am always ready to apply the brakes - just in case - at that speed. Clearly the driver was at fault, but it is hard to argue the case of a lack of culpability from a coffin. In short, the woman should have been paying attention and expecting sudden changing road and traffic conditions.

That's just more victim blaming.

The cyclist was entirely innocent and what you would or wouldn't do is irrelevant.

 

[Alex321]

I'd like to add a comment here if I may: I, and no doubt everyone else who manages to ride without being knocked off by a vehicle, ride defensively. That being the case, is there some degree of responsibility that could be reasonably laid at the door of the cyclist in this case? Riding - or falling - down an incline heading in the direction of an intersection at some 28 MPH with the possibility of a car either being at the intersection or might approach the intersection seems to be irresponsible. I always make eye contact with drivers, I always slow at intersections unless I have a wide view of the area as I near, and I am always ready to apply the brakes - just in case - at that speed. Clearly the driver was at fault, but it is hard to argue the case of a lack of culpability from a coffin. In short, the woman should have been paying attention and expecting sudden changing road and traffic conditions.

Nope.

If it had been another car travelling exactly the same speed, would we have been blaming the driver of that car?

There is not the slightest doubt here, it was 100% the car driver's fault, and the court obviously agreed, which is why said driver is no behind bars.

 

[Jody]

Clearly the driver was at fault, but it is hard to argue the case of a lack of culpability from a coffin. In short, the woman should have been paying attention and expecting sudden changing road and traffic conditions.

wow

 

[winjim]

The cyclist could have been more careful and the driver can still be at fault. Both those things can be true. Visibility at that junction is good, the cyclist should have seen the car approaching and considered whether they could stop in time if the driver were to pull out. We're advised to ride at a speed where we can stop within the distance we can see to be clear and to my mind that includes taking into account whether that distance may suddenly decrease due to the, in this case entirely predictable, actions of others.

In terms of liability, 100% drivers fault but I look at these videos as a cyclist and try to figure out what I could have done in that situation to avoid ending up over the bonnet of a car and sprawled across the tarmac.
In terms of self preservation, the cyclist could have ridden a bit more sensibly.

I must have said this before but in my opinion a good amount of roadcraft is mitigating the mistakes of others.

 

[Jody]

the cyclist should have seen the car approaching and considered whether they could stop in time if the driver were to pull out.

I think both parties views were obscured because of the two cars turning left out the junction prior.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

That being the case, is there some degree of responsibility that could be reasonably laid at the door of the cyclist in this case? Riding - or falling - down an incline heading in the direction of an intersection at some 28 MPH with the possibility of a car either being at the intersection or might approach the intersection seems to be irresponsible.

Would you say the same about someone doing the same in a car or lorry?

 

[winjim]

I think both parties views were obscured because of the two cars turning left out the junction prior.

Even more reason to be cautious. It's a built up area with hazards aplenty.

 

[winjim]

Would you say the same about someone doing the same in a car or lorry?

If I'm in a lorry and it hits a Citroen at 30mph, I'm walking home.

 

[Jody]

Even more reason to be cautious. It's a built up area with hazards aplenty.

So flip the situation and you are in a car in place of the cyclist. You hit the driver pulling out of the junction and they start shouting at you because you didn't stop.

Do you say, "fair point, I should have stopped" and accept your liability?

If I'm in a lorry and it hits a Citroen at 30mph, I'm walking home.

But the poor person in the Citroen probably isn't

That's the mentality of people driving larger vehicles (see SUV thread). If I hit a cyclist, sod it, I'm still going home.

 

[matticus]

OK, I'm using up my "suffer fools gladly" quotient fast, so this has to be said:
The main reason for the numerous "should have been more aware, I would have ridden more slowly, hands on the brake levers, I have spidey senses in these sort of situations .. yada yada ... " comments - here and on rest of t'internet - is ego.

I'm a better cyclist/road-user than the poor schmuck that went to hospital.

Close the thread.

 

[winjim]

So flip the situation and you are in a car in place of the cyclist. You hit the driver pulling out of the junction and they start shouting at you because you didn't stop.

Do you say, "fair point, I should have stopped" and accept your liability?

I'm not talking about liability. I've already said that lies 100% with the driver. I'm talking about staying alive as a cyclist.

But the poor person in the Citroen probably isn't

That's the mentality of people driving larger vehicles (see SUV thread). If I hit a cyclist, sod it, I'm still going home.

We've already established the Citroen driver is at fault so that's not my problem.


Actually as it's a built up area everybody should be careful, drivers and cyclists alike. If you look at the streetview image I posted upthread there are cars parked on both sides of the road past the junction making it effectively single lane. Risk of getting doored, people crossing, children playing.

I don't drive a lorry but I do drive a car and ride a bike so that's what I'm looking at and in either case I think there are lessons to be learned from this incident.

 

[winjim]

OK, I'm using up my "suffer fools gladly" quotient fast, so this has to be said:
The main reason for the numerous "should have been more aware, I would have ridden more slowly, hands on the brake levers, I have spidey senses in these sort of situations .. yada yada ... " comments - here and on rest of t'internet - is ego.

I'm a better cyclist/road-user than the poor schmuck that went to hospital.

Close the thread.

No, it's recognising that there but for the grace of God go I and using this incident as a learning aid to improve my cycling and my driving.

 

[BoldonLad]

No, it's recognising that there but for the grace of God go I and using this incident as a learning aid to improve my cycling and my driving.

Is it possible to improve on perfection?

 

[Ming the Merciless]

If I'm in a lorry and it hits a Citroen at 30mph, I'm walking home.

Does that mean you slow your lorry to 5 mph on the major road every time you pass a minor road?

 

[icowden]

Does that mean you slow your lorry to 5 mph on the major road every time you pass a minor road?

No it means that his personal risk assessment profile is very different when he is driving a lorry to when he is riding a bike.

Personally as soon as I see cars emerging from a side road, or even waiting to emerge, I slow down and prepare to brake if I am on a bike. In the car, not so much, depending on the type of road, and perceived likelihood of someone pulling out.

The difference is that if someone does pull out when I'm in the car, I have good braking and if I do hit someone, the car is going to protect me. On the bike, it's much harder to stop and no protection at all.