Just watching the news about reviewing Cycling laws

[GrumpyGregry]

By default, most juries hearing driving offences will have substantial current experience of driving. You think this makes no difference? Any attempt at equal treatment would require juries of cyclists surely?

By default most juries in theft trials are composed of people who aren't scrotes and may well include people who have been the victims of scrotes. Any attempt at equal treatment would require juries of scrotes surely?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

The main difference between some places in North Zealand and places in England is that the Danes ensure the cycle lane created by painting a lane up the middle of a pavement actually connects to another one or merges back into the road sensibly. Other than that, shoot like https://www.instantstreetview.com/@55.988422,12.557118,233.23h,-24.76p,1z would be unsurprising in this country.

I've ridden that several times. Shoot it ain't. Because Danish society respects the choice of those who cycle, because nearly every able bodied citizen cycles, what you call shoot works brilliantly. What would be shoot in our context isn't in theirs. But it ain't perfect, get on the lanes, where there is no special cycling provision and there is plenty of car vs bike conflict. In the towns and cities there's a fiar bit of bike v bike conflict peak hours. But woe betide the Danish driver who acts like a dick near cyclists peak hours in cph. Quite likely to get door kicked, mirrors removed and a good tongue lashing from a gang of angry women.

 

[KnackeredBike]

@glasgowcyclist I have posted before working in A&E taking police handovers if it's a cyclist (or motorcyclist) they are always at fault or they were asking for it cycling where/when they were.

If its a driver, except drink drivers, it is always a tragic accident, either the conditions or dangerous road or some other excuse.

My favourite was a cyclist where someone dropped something on them from a bridge onto a cycle path, and still the police thought the cyclist was probably going too fast based on them saying they saw it at the last minute.

And these are the people we are trusting to accurately record and investigate collisions.

 

[Dan B]

By default most juries in theft trials are composed of people who aren't scrotes and may well include people who have been the victims of scrotes. Any attempt at equal treatment would require juries of scrotes surely?

Well, yes, I think that's the point. Juries in burglary trials are likely to relate to victims, in driving crimes more likely to relate to the perpetrator

 

[growingvegetables]

That really isn't what the idea of a jury of your peers is about. If a woman in an abusive relationship harms her abuser should the jury be made up of people who share her experience, or his?

There's a wee bit of a wrinkle though.

"By "dangerous" we mean within the meaning of section 2A of the RTA 1988, i.e. the standard of driving falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous." My bold - the call to the driver's peer drivers to rely on their perceptions of their safety and competence? There, in a nutshell ... the "there but for the grace of God ..." get-out clause.

If you'll allow me to tweak your analogy? In careless/dangerous driving cases, it's choosing a jury of abusers?

Not a pleasant thought.

 

[PK99]

Well, yes, I think that's the point. Juries in burglary trials are likely to relate to victims, in driving crimes more likely to relate to the perpetrator

I interesting you refer to one as trials and the other as crimes. unconscious bias on your part?

 

[XC26]

All this is getting me down. The more I read, the more disturbing it appears to be for cyclists. I've just read about the case of a young cyclist who died after a collision with a pedestrian in March this year. As is to be expected, the Daily Mail appears to misrepresent the facts and the readers' comments are disgusting. ..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4858530/Cyclist-died-running-pedestrian.html

The facts are probably best obtained here ...

http://www.gloucestershirelive.co.u...n-accomplished-cheltenham-cyclist-dies-436755

Finally, I was astounted to read that the poor deceased cyclist could have been prosecuted...

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...estrian-may-faced-prosecution-survived-352117

 

[Dan B]

I interesting you refer to one as trials and the other as crimes. unconscious bias on your part?

If it is, I'm not conscious of it. Bad editing because posting on phone may also play a part

 

[KnackeredBike]

What I always find is also neglected in these car vs bike fatalities is that we have cities which are entirely set up for motor vehicles and their safety and swift egress.

This creates two of the biggest pedestrian/cyclist conflicts, namely traffic lights, of which there are so many examples showing junctions work much better for cyclists when they are turned off, and also allowing parked vehicles to line roads reducing visibility - which contributed to the CA incident.

I'm not sure that shared space is the answer everywhere, but undoubtedly cities designed where people rather than rules and lights decide priority, and where traffic speeds are lower, would reduce cycling injuries and also almost certainly injuries caused by motor vehicles. I've said before, to some unpopularity, the reason why some cyclists ignore red lights at junctions (not crossings) is because they don't benefit from them, they are solely for the benefit of motorists.

 

[Shut Up Legs]

While your point is perfectly sensible and logical, the world and the people within are not always so.

You honestly believe that poor/contentious behaviour by one member or group from within a subset of society, and the consequent media reporting thereof, has no bearing on the rest of that subset, in terms of how the rest of society perceives and behaves towards them? An altered perception of the whole subset based on an isolated incident or collection of incidents might be illogical, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

If you don't believe me, try talking to anyone who was part of a mining community in the 80s. Or a football supporter post-Heysel. Or an MP post-expenses scandal. Or a Muslim post-9/11. Or....

Your post just agreed with mine. That outgroup homogeneity I mentioned accounts for everything you just mentioned.

But just because people are affected by this doesn't mean we should just roll over and put up with it. I never miss the opportunity to remind people that holding all cyclists accountable for the actions of one is wrong, illogical and prejudiced.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Well, yes, I think that's the point. Juries in burglary trials are likely to relate to victims, in driving crimes more likely to relate to the perpetrator

There you have it. The norms in our society, like it or not, mean folk identify with those who kill and maim in motor vehicles.

That's the farked-up world we live in.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

There's a wee bit of a wrinkle though.

"By "dangerous" we mean within the meaning of section 2A of the RTA 1988, i.e. the standard of driving falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous." My bold - the call to the driver's peer drivers to rely on their perceptions of their safety and competence? There, in a nutshell ... the "there but for the grace of God ..." get-out clause.

If you'll allow me to tweak your analogy? In careless/dangerous driving cases, it's choosing a jury of abusers?

Not a pleasant thought.

You assume the jury is made of competent and careful drivers, capable of judging what competent amd careful driving looks like. I don't. 75% of em are unconscious drivers doing it by rote with most of their consciousness otherwise occupied. They rely on everyone else playing nicely to get by.

See invisible gorillas et al.

And here's a thing, a real kicker too. What competent amd careful looks like around other steel boxes is completely different to what competent and careful looks like when said steel box is near a cyclist or pedestrian.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

What I always find is also neglected in these car vs bike fatalities is that we have cities which are entirely set up for motor vehicles and their safety and swift egress.

This creates two of the biggest pedestrian/cyclist conflicts, namely traffic lights, of which there are so many examples showing junctions work much better for cyclists when they are turned off, and also allowing parked vehicles to line roads reducing visibility - which contributed to the CA incident.

I'm not sure that shared space is the answer everywhere, but undoubtedly cities designed where people rather than rules and lights decide priority, and where traffic speeds are lower, would reduce cycling injuries and also almost certainly injuries caused by motor vehicles. I've said before, to some unpopularity, the reason why some cyclists ignore red lights at junctions (not crossings) is because they don't benefit from them, they are solely for the benefit of motorists.

except in cities, like cph, where cyclists have dedicated traffic lights to benefit them, some egotistical farkwit nobber twat cyclists ignore red lights.

Because ego driven nobber twats do what their twattish nobber egos compel them to do.

 

[growingvegetables]

You assume the jury is made of competent and careful drivers, capable of judging what competent amd careful driving looks like. ...

A lot of the jury will think that of themselves.

 

[Flick of the Elbow]

Govt, local authorities, the police & judiciary, the press, juries, and most of the public are united in their attitude of "It's only a cyclist".
When a cyclist is killed or seriously injured they couldn't care less, it's only a cyclist.
When as a pedestrian or motorist they see a cyclist coming towards them they feel quite ok about stepping out/driving into their path because it's only a cyclist.
When presented with cyclists' concerns about dangerous road layouts, aggressive driving attitudes, lorry designs where the driver literally can't see what's straight under their nose, they are happy to ignore us because we're only cyclists.
But the minute someone they see as one of their own is killed in an accident with a cyclist, their actions and words are immediate. They disgust me.