Keeping local dialects alive.

[graham56]

@graham56 Long time no see. Hope you're well bonny lad

I’ve been off the radar for a while, spending a bit time with family in the Netherlands.
Hoping you and the family are keeping well.

 

[Genau]

It looks like the island is the same pronunciation in Gaelic
So which came first ?
Was the clothing named after the island, or the island after the clothing ?
(Guernsey I guess would have originally been in the Gaeltacht, as it right next to Brittany)

Guernsey apparently has Old Norse origins which I suppose makes sense as it was part of the Duchy of Normandy. It must have taken the Normans a bit of a while to pick up French.

Breton belongs to the other branch of the Insular Celtic family, Brittonic not Goidelic, so Brittany is not part of the Gaeltacht.

 

[Genau]

I shouldn't really follow my own post with another post but I've read the rest of the thread now and been prompted to out myself as another Lancastrian and also to echo the praise of Simon Roper's YouTube videos. It's thanks to Simon that I now know why after 25 years in London people could still guess my home town with a scary degree of accuracy - it's the rhoticity.

I hadn't realised until I watched Simon that rhoticity in England has shrunk to just the West Country and part of Lancashire. in fact, I wasn't really aware that rhoticity was a thing.

His videos are strangely compelling yet relaxing. I think he's doing some sort of hypnosis or mind control.

Edited to add - Dr Jackson Crawford on YouTube is good too. Very different style and a slightly different subject (mainly Old Norse culture and language) but well worth watching. Also good for the Rocky Mountain backdrops.

 

[Fnaar]

You might be interested in Simon Roper's youtube channel on linguistics, particularly old and middle English, and the phonology of the varied accents of English as spoken across the UK.

He is so relaxed in his delivery that I find watching his videos a mixture of education and meditation at the same time. Really interesting stuff!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXv3Tt4x20


In this video he examines the swear words fark, daffodil and shoot over the centuries.
(This is an academic analysis of the swear words but he does say them a lot so if you're of a delicate disposition don't watch it.)

View: https://youtu.be/ARgGguQlQ0w

Thanks, I've seen both but they're useful He knows his phonetics, but I could nitpick his 'performance' of some of the vowel sounds

 

[Fnaar]

I'm sure you can ...

But seriously, feel free. Who would you say is using RP now - and did who did they pick it up from?

(are you a R4 listener? They recently have a new continuity announcer who speaks the most amazing "propa" English. Just occasionally he really mangles a word*, but generally has amazing diction that I could never match
*IMO, that )

I'm busy this evening, but will post something in reply tomorrow

 

[glasgowcyclist]

He knows his phonetics, but I could nitpick his 'performance' of some of the vowel sounds

He does emphasise that he’s not a linguist so I wouldn’t expect him to be spot on and, refreshingly for youtube content, he invites, and is genuinely pleased to receive, corrections. He’s instantly become one of my favourite channels.

 

[byegad]

That's not true, really, for many years now regional accents have been more than evident, not only in progs, but in news, weather, breakfast TV, the One show, etc. Art critic the late Brian Sewell used to complain that the BBC would no longer employ him because his accent was too posh.

Yes but Brian Sewell was a bigoted Southern Twunt!

 

[Fnaar]

But seriously, feel free. Who would you say is using RP now - and did who did they pick it up from?

(are you a R4 listener? They recently have a new continuity announcer who speaks the most amazing "propa" English. Just occasionally he really mangles a word*, but generally has amazing diction that I could never match
*IMO, that )

Here we go
Firstly, some things to bear in mind, which occasionally cause confusion:
1) 'Standard English' refers to grammar, phrases and vocabulary, and not pronunciation.
For example, 'friend' is a standard word, and would suit both formal and informal situations. 'Mate' (meaning 'friend') is also a standard word, but informal. 'Mucker' or 'marra' (both meaning 'friend') are non-standard, and would be considered dialect words, as well as being informal.
2) Standard English may therefore be spoken with ANY accent.
3) Dialect refers to the grammar, phrases and vocabulary used, and is often closely linked to particular accents.
4) Accent refers to pronunciation (e.g typical northern/southern pronunciations of 'bus' or 'bath').
5) Nobody is entirely consistent in their use of accent or dialect.

Modern RP is not the highly stylised and old-fashioned manner of speaking that people associate with the BBC of old. To give an example of someone in the public eye (and there are many potential examples) consider the way Emily Maitlis () speaks when presenting the news. That's a good example of modern RP. It is best considered as a non-regional, non-localisable accent of English. As a caveat, even though someone may speak modern RP, you occasionally find regional variations, typically northern/southern (see the 'bus/bath' examples above). In fact I used to use a recording of a friend of mine in my teaching, who spoke modern RP, but with northern vowel variations for certain sets of words.

I'm not familiar with the announcer you mention. I do listen to R4, but mostly on catch-up.

I hadn't realised until I watched Simon that rhoticity in England has shrunk to just the West Country and part of Lancashire. in fact, I wasn't really aware that rhoticity was a thing.

Rhoticity can also be found for some speakers in East Anglia, though really not many these days.
For the uninitiated/interested, rhoticity refers to:
a) pronouncing an 'r' which appears in the spelled word after a vowel, when the 'r' is the final letter:
e.g. 'car'. I am a non-rhotic speaker, and do not pronounce the 'r'. Most Scottish and Irish speakers are rhotic, and do pronounce the 'r'. So do most Americans (USA). Also consider the examples given by @Genau above.
b) pronouncing an 'r' which appears in the spelled word after a vowel and before a consonant:
e.g. 'park'. I, as a non-rhotic speaker do not pronounce the 'r'. Rhotic speakers would do so.
c) When the 'r' is between two vowel sounds, all speakers would typically pronounce it (e.g. 'carrot').
Considering English as spoken worldwide as a first language, non-rhotic speakers are very much in the minority (in terms of number of speakers).

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Rhoticity can also be found for some speakers in East Anglia, though really not many these days.
For the uninitiated/interested, rhoticity refers to:
a) pronouncing an 'r' which appears in the spelled word after a vowel, when the 'r' is the final letter:
e.g. 'car'. I am a non-rhotic speaker, and do not pronounce the 'r'. Most Scottish and Irish speakers are rhotic, and do pronounce the 'r'. So do most Americans (USA). Also consider the examples given by @Genau above.
b) pronouncing an 'r' which appears in the spelled word after a vowel and before a consonant:
e.g. 'park'. I, as a non-rhotic speaker do not pronounce the 'r'. Rhotic speakers would do so.
c) When the 'r' is between two vowel sounds, all speakers would typically pronounce it (e.g. 'carrot').

The one that I find inexplicably irritating (maybe a good one for that thread of annoying things) is the linking ‘r’. Many speakers in England will insert an ‘r’ sound where one word ends in a vowel and a second word begins with a vowel. For example, vanilla ice becomes vanilla (r)ice, law and order becomes law(r) and order. You can even hear it inside a word; drawing becomes draw(r)ing!

I have no idea how it came about but it does make my ears go back when I hear it.

 

[Fnaar]

The one that I find inexplicably irritating (maybe a good one for that thread of annoying things) is the linking ‘r’. Many speakers in England will insert an ‘r’ sound where one word ends in a vowel and a second word begins with a vowel. For example, vanilla ice becomes vanilla (r)ice, law and order becomes law(r) and order. You can even hear it inside a word; drawing becomes draw(r)ing!

I have no idea how it came about but it does make my ears go back when I hear it.

I do it all the time Most non-rhotic speakers do (between words, anyway). Within words varies, but I've noted Prince Harry doing it.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

I do it all the time Most non-rhotic speakers do (between words, anyway). Within words varies, but I've noted Prince Harry doing it.

How did that speech style come about? Why are there non-rhotic speakers who don't do that? (Feel free to ignore those questions, I'm simply thinking out loud.)

 

[Fnaar]

How did that speech style come about? Why are there non-rhotic speakers who don't do that? (Feel free to ignore those questions, I'm simply thinking out loud.)

Not sure how it came about, but it's far from new. Non-rhotics who don't do it probably do some of the time anyway, some may choose not to do it (within words) because they consider it wrong. Then we get into accent and class, which is a delightful minefield

 

[Pale Rider]

Missing the final 'g' off words ending in 'ing' is a habit I've noticed recently.

Our esteemed home secretary is one of many with this affectation.

In this short clip, the second time she says 'speaking' it comes out as 'speakin', and towards the end she says 'keepin' rather than 'keeping'.

View: https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1363936454217510915?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

 

[Fnaar]

Missing the final 'g' off words ending in 'ing' is a habit I've noticed recently.

Our esteemed home secretary is one of many with this affectation.

In this short clip, the second time she says 'speaking' it comes out as 'speakin', and towards the end she says 'keepin' rather than 'keeping'.

View: https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1363936454217510915?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Good spot. A lot of people do it, some more so than others, but she is remarkably consistent in doing so.

 

[matticus]

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2426957-Steve-Wright-Serious-Jockin