I was wondering what people's opinions on this are. Logic dictates that the more you keep the bike on a plain while you pump the pedals the more of that energy is transferred to forward motion. I usually try and bear this in mind however the pros do exhibit quite a bit of side to side motion when climbing. I presume there is a trade off between efficient pedalling and whatever benefits rocking the bike has. Does anyone know?
Lateral motion when pedalling out of seat
- Thread starter NeoCaesar
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totallyfixed
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Very little energy is used in "rocking" the bike from side to side and in fact on all but the steepest / hardest of climbs the bars should not be gripped hard, allowing the bike to rock and most of your body weight to fall on the pedal. This technique, contrary to a lot of "well meaning" advice you get on forums is actually very efficient.
When I am running I aim to keep my arms moving in a pendulum motion as it is most efficient. Surely pedalling is the same, more so in fact?
Thinking about it I always hold my bars loosely and I suppose it is impossible to remove the motion without holding on for dear life. I can see what you mean about the bike rocking and letting your weight 'fall' onto the pedal. I guess what is a definite pedalling motion becomes more of a stepping motion once out of the saddle.
totallyfixed
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It is one of those subjects that is very difficult to explain in writing, I taught my better half how to climb hills and she is one of the few ladies that are happy climbing out of the saddle. [BTW, just over a week ago she was first lady on the Shap 9.1 mile hill climb and on Saturday first again on a 100 mile time trial] so efficiency is something we have fairly well sorted.
GrasB
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I had the opportunity to see my actual output by cranks degrees while using various peddling techniques. It was quite expensive but for a one off 3 hour session but incredibly informative. When you rock the bike out of the saddle you effectively lengthen the time you're putting power into the pedals & minimising the time you're in the dead spot (it's similar to riding on a 5-10% oval chain ring!). The result is that you climb faster. When trying to keep the bike still & not rocking it you effectively put the chain ring 90 degrees out of phase so is asking you to produce more power when you can produce very little power.
There is also lots of discussion that the sinuous motion of the upper body when riding out of the saddle helps the rider to generate more power than they would with just your legs which is additional to what I've mentioned above.
There is also lots of discussion that the sinuous motion of the upper body when riding out of the saddle helps the rider to generate more power than they would with just your legs which is additional to what I've mentioned above.
oldroadman
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- Ubique
Watch any pro race on TV. Observe when on a REALLY steep climb, requiring an out of the saddle effort, the technique. What is happening is two fold, the arms are pushing the bike up against the drive side leg, so there is longer on the down stroke. PLUS, if you watch carefully, you'll notice that on the upstroke there is pulling going on, which smooths out the climb speed, and HURTS!
The whole process does take much more energy, however, than simply sitting in the saddle and pedalling, holding the bars on tops or hoods, steadily pulling back on them, using a lower gear, and still getting some pressure on the upstroke at the same time. Hard but more efficient. Depends how hard you want to go, a pro would generally want to spend as much time in the sadle as possible to retain energy and go a bit easier. Only out of saddle for big efforts when needed (attacks, mountain sprints at the summit, uphill finishes, etc).
The whole process does take much more energy, however, than simply sitting in the saddle and pedalling, holding the bars on tops or hoods, steadily pulling back on them, using a lower gear, and still getting some pressure on the upstroke at the same time. Hard but more efficient. Depends how hard you want to go, a pro would generally want to spend as much time in the sadle as possible to retain energy and go a bit easier. Only out of saddle for big efforts when needed (attacks, mountain sprints at the summit, uphill finishes, etc).
gaz
Cycle Camera TV
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Are you saying that pros are pulling up and pushing down on the pedals at the same time? Studies have shown that this is false.
Do you have any videos or anything that backs up what you are suggesting?
GrasB
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No they haven't, they've shown under certain conditions riders don't use the upstroke... that much. There is a range of pedalling styles which go from oh-so-slight downward foot pressure on the upstroke to noticeable positive pull on the upstroke in the semi-pro & pro ranks of riders. Riders who keep some weight on the pedals when in the saddle tend to produce a larger over-all peek pedal pressure. Riders who tend to lift their foot up in the saddle have a lower peek pressure but with a broader peak zone. I'm yet to see a pressure trace with power at over 250w/leg at 90rpm that doesn't show at least 2.5w/leg generated by the upstroke. The higher the cadence the wattage as a % is smaller but it's still universally there.
take a look at this graph:
Oh from my own power profile, at 80rpm & 470-570w approximation 15% of my power is produced by the trailing foot.
Arsen Gere
Über Member
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- North East, UK
An alternate style is to keep the bike up right and drag you feet over top dead centre, it feels a bit like when you were a kid and scuffed the toes of your shoes along the path.
I find this quicker on short sharp climbs as it keeps the pedals rotating through the dead spots.
I find this quicker on short sharp climbs as it keeps the pedals rotating through the dead spots.
I'd like to see those graphs in the slower cadence swinging climbing motion the OP was talking about. I imagine the dip under the zero is much much greater.
Also, are the graph results comparable with the real world (can you get results like that from real world cycling)? I'm assuming this is done static.
Also, are the graph results comparable with the real world (can you get results like that from real world cycling)? I'm assuming this is done static.
totallyfixed
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I mention this because of your signature, Graham Obree trained on "feel", Chris Boardman was into stats and graphs and everything technical [sorry GrasB], I know which one I preferred. Technique is everything, strength comes later and in answer to your question the rabbits are still tunnelling and will be for some time yet I suspect. Most of us don't need to look too deeply into that tunnel, a lot of common sense, experience and miles in legs goes a long way.
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+1. Who is the Briton who got banned twice for introducing ideas too radical for the establishment?
I'm guessing you imply you prefer Obree? So that you don't graph it until you can actually chart the fun being sucked out of it?
