Legal liability on forum rides?

[Brandane]

This matter has arisen on a motorcycle forum of which I am a member. For several years we have been going on rideouts around the country, which are arranged in a similar way to CC rides: post a date and location, then see who signs up for it. Recently the admins and site "owner" have become concerned about the possibility of legal action being taken against them and individual run organisers in the case of someone being injured (or worse).

They are quite right to be concerned IMHO, in these days of ambulance chasers and compensation specialist lawyers. It has caused quite a heated debate on the site, as it has been suggested by admin that we have 2 choices ............ 1. Become affiliated to the BMF (British Motorcycle Federation) and thereby be covered by their liability insurance; or 2. No more runs to be organised under the banner of the club, so advertising your intended ride on the forum would not be allowed. For whatever reason, membership of the BMF is not proving to be a popular idea.

Admin have given 2 examples from other clubs who are being chased for damages following incidents on rides. These cases have not yet been settled, so no verdict as yet. However, obviously the allegations have to be defended at some expense no matter the eventual outcome, and this is the real concern. Insurance against such a risk appears to be hard to come by, given that the membership is over 2000 people (although only about 200 are active).

I have posted on here due to the similarities in the way runs are organised. What happens if someone is injured (or causes injury to a member of the public) on a CC ride? Can the run organiser and/or site admin be held liable in any way? I wouldn't have thought so, but there is always that remote chance. We have no lawyers over on the MC site, so any advice would be welcomed and passed on!
NB... We are not talking about a group of Isle of Man TT wannabes here. It is a group of touring bikers mostly aged 50+ who meet up for the occasional weekend. Rides are recce'd by the organiser, and a safety briefing always given prior to the start. The marker system is used so there is no pressure on any person to go faster than they are comfortable with.

 

[HovR]

I know someone who organizes an annual marine cruising event for a club. To enter the event you must sign a disclosure form stating that you know marine environments can be dangerous etc etc, and you won't sue the organizer or the club. The organizer keeps these forms just in case something were to happen.

Seems a bit over the top for a bike/motorbike ride, but it's a way forward if liability is an issue.

 

[Brandane]

I know someone who organizes an annual marine cruising event for a club. To enter the event you must sign a disclosure form stating that you know marine environments can be dangerous etc etc, and you won't sue the organizer or the club. The organizer keeps these forms just in case something were to happen.

Seems a bit over the top for a bike/motorbike ride, but it's a way forward if liability is an issue.

Disclaimers have been discussed, but the concensus is that they are not worth the paper they are written on. In any case, the legal action might be raised by someone from outside the club, e.g. if a pedestrian was hit by one of the run participants.

 

[Arsen Gere]

We, a group of like minded individuals agree to ride to a particular location and do not have the club endorse the actions we take. The idea being the club can't be sued. Individuals usually have some kind of 3rd party liability, CTC, BCF, BTF etc. So not under the club banner, it makes no difference to us having club endorsement.

 

[ufkacbln]

I know that some organisations (CTC) will on a satisfactory assessment, endorse rides for their members and in doing so cover the insurance. The Scout Association is the ame

The other option is "Event Insurance" - there is a good explanation here, but note this is an example - I do not have experience of any company

 

[mattobrien]

'Elf and safety gone mad.

I 'organised' a ride recently, sadly due to my own illness I couldn't attend. I am not responsible for the riders or how they rode. People need to take responsibility for themselves and the way they behave both on and off a bike. I do not wish to associate with those who cannot.

What is even worse, I have organised a visit to the pub for the Suffolk CC's (well those near Ipswich) tomorrow night

Goodness knows what might happen if someone has one too many and says something out of place to one of the native pub dwellers or decides to do some RLJing on the way home, or even worse makes an attempt on a Strava KoM.

As far as I see it we are all grown ups and responsible for what we do. This forum can never be held responsible or liable for my actions and if I am stupid enough to do something silly on the advice of others more fool me, not anyone else.

 

[Drago]

I wish everyone took such a sensible view as you do Matt.

 

[sidevalve]

I wish people were "adult"enough to take responsibility for their own actions and that the new "sport" of sue for everything would be stamped out but I'm afraid ANY accident is now regarded as fair game and anybody, no matter how distant or uninvolved can be held "responsible".
One suggestion may be to advertize only the fact that "XYZ is riding to 123 on sunday at 10 AM" or whatever, anyone joining in is simply doing so 1 - because they want to and 2 - they feel like riding to the same place at a similar time. If no-one "invited" them then they can have little come back nor can anyone they collide with.
PS I suspect thet the reason many people don't join the BMF is the high cost and little visible benefits.

 

[byegad]

I know someone who organizes an annual marine cruising event for a club. To enter the event you must sign a disclosure form stating that you know marine environments can be dangerous etc etc, and you won't sue the organizer or the club. The organizer keeps these forms just in case something were to happen.

Seems a bit over the top for a bike/motorbike ride, but it's a way forward if liability is an issue.

And likely to be a waste of time. After chatting to a lawyer friend who does a fair amount of accident work he says a disclaimer, in itself, is likely to be either useless or even makes things worse, because demanding one be signed is a sign of you knowing there are hazards involved.

Not sure myself, but that was his pennyworth.

 

[subaqua]

doesn't bother us over on the diving forum i also frequent and the risks of injutry/fatality are slightly greater in an underwater environment

 

[Muddyfox]

doesn't bother us over on the diving forum i also frequent and the risks of injutry/fatality are slightly greater in an underwater environment

I very much doubt that more people are killed/injured each year underwater than they are on the roads ?

 

[TonyEnjoyD]

'Elf and safety gone mad.

Sorry to be slightly off topic but its not.

The OP was from a person concerned that they/us/CC may be sued for injury or damage during an "organised ride" and nothing to do with "Elf n Safety"
This in now endemic in the UK with ambulance chaser legal call-centres scraping through their lives and feeding people's greed.

Nor is it someone using Health and Safety as an excuse NOT to do something and avoid the work, hassle and cost.

It WOULD be the case if some individual purporting to be a Health and Safety person jumped in to put the stop on a ride with no real cause.

Sorry for the semi-rant, but as an experienced H&S professional that expounds a "can do" and reasonable approach to safety measures, it personally riles me when "Elf n Safety gone mad" is used when it has no ground.

 

[subaqua]

I very much doubt that more people are killed/injured each year underwater than they are on the roads ?

somebody that doesn't understand risk and all the oputcomes. nobody has to die for the risk to be great its the severity that if it DID go wrong. if things go wrong underwater it is a lot harder to get a positive outcome than on land.

17 fatalities in 2012 . its harder to get a proper KSI figure as not all serious injuries are reported. compared against number of dives per year thats a fairly high total as a percentage.

again being a bSAC member i have thrid poarty liabilkity insurance , just as i do from my CTC membership.

its not a problem for organising trips. everybody knows they are responsible for only themselves, sadly we are catching up with the USA where its litigate first ask questions later.

 

[400bhp]

I think you might be covered if you have public liability insurance? And most home insurance policies have public liability insurance bolted on.

If you are a British Cycling member you have 3rd party liability insurance, and what's more, another member of British Cycling cannot (in the case of a cycling related matter) sue you.

Cycling clubs often have their own public liability insurance. I know of one where the insurers stated that the maximum number of riders in a group was 12 IIRC.

Another cycling club stipulates club riders must have 3rd party liability insurance.

It is a risk, yes.

 

[gavroche]

what a sad world we live in!!