Legal liability on forum rides?

[subaqua]

The difference is organised SCUBA in the UK normally takes place by persons trained, assessed and insured either via BSAC or PADI while anyone can attend or organise a forum bike ride with absolutely no training, experience or insurance.

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exactly same for diving too, if not done as a business. we are all individually responsible.

I have lost 2 good friends in the last 5 years in diving incidents. one was a BSAC FCD and national instructor. one was a BSAC advanced Diver. both diving well within limits set out in SDP.

PADI don't insure anybody, and once you have your Ccard from them, you is on your own.

 

[Andrew_Culture]

I plan to join the CTC partly for the third party cover, but only because if I rode my heavy bike through the middle of someone's carbon margarine tub framed bicycle I'd feel rotten about it and would want to compensate them.

A fella I used to work for joined the CTC and they apparently were a great help to him when he accidentally cycled through the window of a fancy kitchen goods shop in Woodbridge. @SimonJKH and I took a detour on a recent ride to try and figure out how he managed it and we have no idea. Off topic, but interesting none the less.

 

[middleagecyclist]

exactly same for diving too, if not done as a business. we are all individually responsible.

Yes we all have individual responsibility for our actions. However if i, as an Advanced Diver (BSAC), were to allow a trainee diver to dive beyond their means on a trip organised and supervised by me I would expect some comeback should there be a mishap. Similarly, (using an extreme example) if i organised a cycle ride which took a shortcut over a pedestrian only rickety wooden footbridge and I insisted everyone went by that route and someone was injured crossing it I would no doubt be facing some criticism at the very least. If you organise activities for others you take on some responsibility for ensuring the activity is reasonably safe considering the level of experience of those taking part.

 

[subaqua]

Yes we all have individual responsibility for our actions. However if i, as an Advanced Diver (BSAC), were to allow a trainee diver to dive beyond their means on a trip organised and supervised by me I would expect some comeback should there be a mishap. Similarly, (using an extreme example) if i organised a cycle ride which took a shortcut over a pedestrian only rickety wooden footbridge and I insisted everyone went by that route and someone was injured crossing it I would no doubt be facing some criticism at the very least. If you organise activities for others you take on some responsibility for ensuring the activity is reasonably safe considering the level of experience of those taking part.

training is a lot different to a bimble , as well you know.

I am not saying you shouldn't give a flying one on a bimble , but that I am not responsible for your actions. if you cock up underwater i am going to do what i can to help and then rip you mercilessly back on the boat. but its not my responsibility to mollycoddle you.

If i am teaching then i am wholly responsible for you and your actions

 

[sidevalve]

What I find annoying are rules such as being made to wear a hi vis vest even in broad daylight. I say if you cannot see someone when they aint wearing a hi vis in daylight, then your not entitled to be operating dangerous machinery anyway. Also such precautions (or lack of) shouldnt be used as disclaimers. Where I work I have even been told how to pull a trolley. Elf and safety really has gone mad and it ****es me off. It ****es me off so much it makes me want to do something dangerous that I would not have felt like doing were it not for certain pedantics. How long did Evil Knievel live btw?

Sorry but it's not H&S it's simply the pure greed of the "injury claimers". If a company, workplace or event could rely on people only being able to claim through genuine negligence then fine but the claims industry is a thriving one and far too many regard "claiming" as a legitimate form of employment.

 

[middleagecyclist]

training is a lot different to a bimble , as well you know.

I am not saying you shouldn't give a flying one on a bimble , but that I am not responsible for your actions. if you cock up underwater i am going to do what i can to help and then rip you mercilessly back on the boat. but its not my responsibility to mollycoddle you.

If i am teaching then i am wholly responsible for you and your actions

Yes there are differences between SCUBA and cycling activites and when training a diver that is a whole different level of responsibility. It is too easy though to say once trained/adequate everyone is responsible for themselves.

I remember organising a shore diving weekend at St Abbs. The weather was a disaster but we went up just in case. I wouldn't schedule any club diving for the Saturday and this really pissed off a Dive Leader and two gnarly old Sport Divers who decided to take themselves off for a dive as a threesome with no shore cover. I made perfectly clear they were doing this outside the auspices of the club and the matter would be reported to the DO at the next club meeting. They stayed in the water about five minutes before abandoning the dive, one of then badly twisting an ankle in the process. I had been responsible for the safety of the dive as club divers but once they took themselves off by themselves against my explicit warning I gave up any responsibility for them.

Now, if I was to organise a singletrack event for a group of CCers despite having limited MTB experience and confidence myself and the course was a shambles and someone broke their neck riding it would I be partly responsible then? I didn't push them off the bike and I wasn't even there when they came off. However, I think a lawyer could easily make a case against me in such a situation.

 

[TonyEnjoyD]

What I find annoying are rules such as being made to wear a hi vis vest even in broad daylight. I say if you cannot see someone when they aint wearing a hi vis in daylight, then your not entitled to be operating dangerous machinery anyway. Also such precautions (or lack of) shouldnt be used as disclaimers. Where I work I have even been told how to pull a trolley. Elf and safety really has gone mad and it ****es me off. It ****es me off so much it makes me want to do something dangerous that I would not have felt like doing were it not for certain pedantics. How long did Evil Knievel live btw?

If only everyone was as observant as you and like you never took any chances when thre are vehicles around or never defeated machine guards and always wore proper PPE, then you wouldn't need what seems like a possible H&S pedant where you work.
Oo, and stopped putting in spurious claims for minor injuries while saying they are lifestyle limiting and getting a cushty payoff from the company's insurer.
Then without "Elf n safety", as employers we'd be able to send kids up chimneys and down mines, use fibrous asbestos for pipe lagging and use lovely trichloroethane as a fab degreaser.
Bit like a friend and neighbour of mine 7 year ago went to work at 07:30 at a processing plant, there was a jam in a machine which was a regular occurrence and the person who used to operate the machine had defeated and removed the guard to allow access while the machine was running.
My mate didn't come home that night, in fact he didn't even make morning tea break before he was shipped off to the morgue.
But look on the bright side, at least he mustn't have had some idiot jumped-up H&S pedant whingeing on at him about the machine guard. Wasn't he the lucky one!

 

[TonyEnjoyD]

I must apologise for my rant, off topic and annoying fr the OP.
Mods, please feel free to delete it

 

[Brandane]

I must apologise for my rant, off topic and annoying fr the OP.
Mods, please feel free to delete it

No need to apologise (to the OP anyway). Threads evolve and it makes for interesting debate and different perspectives. In any case, it could be said that the whole thread is about risk taking and its possible consequences, which is what PROPER H&S is all about. It's the nit picking interpretations of H&S legislation that get it a bad name. Game of conkers anyone?

 

[middleagecyclist]

No need to apologise (to the OP anyway). Threads evolve and it makes for interesting debate and different perspectives. In any case, it could be said that the whole thread is about risk taking and its possible consequences, which is what PROPER H&S is all about. It's the nit picking interpretations of H&S legislation that get it a bad name. Game of conkers anyone?

This^^^^