Legal liability on forum rides?

[Svendo]

I recall a case of a crash on a club run, where I think a rider crashed due to the rider in front braking suddenly, and it went to court to decide liability of the ride organisers and/or the rider that braked suddenly. Unfortunately I can't remember any more details, or the final outcome. I've tried a bit of googling but haven't found it. Perhaps someone can recall more details and discover the outcome, as I think it'd be very informative for this question.
Off the top of my head, I imagine on the sort of informal rides usually organised here, the duty of care owed is low and the test for negligence would be fairly high. I.e. you'd have to do (or allow to happen through inaction) something quite obviously risky or stupid to be successfully sued as the organiser of a ride.

 

[black'n'yellow]

if you all joined British Cycling, you would all be covered individually anyway....

 

[ianrauk]

if you all joined British Cycling, you would all be covered individually anyway....

Indeed.. and also the LCC and CTC

 

[400bhp]

if you all joined British Cycling, you would all be covered individually anyway....

You couldn't claim against another BC member though.

 

[400bhp]

I imagine on the sort of informal rides usually organised here, the duty of care owed is low

That's probably the crux of it I guess.

 

[black'n'yellow]

You couldn't claim against another BC member though.

not sure - I don't see why not...

 

[400bhp]

Its in the t&c

 

[ColinJ]

I recall a case of a crash on a club run, where I think a rider crashed due to the rider in front braking suddenly, and it went to court to decide liability of the ride organisers and/or the rider that braked suddenly. Unfortunately I can't remember any more details, or the final outcome. I've tried a bit of googling but haven't found it. Perhaps someone can recall more details and discover the outcome, as I think it'd be very informative for this question.
Off the top of my head, I imagine on the sort of informal rides usually organised here, the duty of care owed is low and the test for negligence would be fairly high. I.e. you'd have to do (or allow to happen through inaction) something quite obviously risky or stupid to be successfully sued as the organiser of a ride.

I was thinking of that one myself, Svendo.

IIRC, the person who crashed ended up paralysed and his family were pretty much forced to sue because they couldn't afford to look after him properly if they didn't.

I have worried about such potential outcomes on my rides.

I have thought about the question of warning about hazards in advance because that clearly does demonstrate an awareness of the dangers. One notable example was on my Settle ride last year. We were about to head down a horribly steep, narrow, twisty, turny lane with a gate across the road on the way down! I warned everyone to take extreme care and we all got down in one piece. A couple of months later, a woman died after crashing on that same descent ...

 

[Crankarm]

You couldn't claim against another BC member though.

Yes, you can. Any contract t&c that effectively curtails either your civil or statutory rights has no legal affect.

I think if you were seriously injured or killed as a result of some one else's negligence then you or Executors of your Estate would want and need to sue the Other party or organiser of an event, if you could no longer work and therefore provide financial support to your family or you needed round the clock care for the rest of your life. If some one is insured it is good news. If people who cause injury or damage to property are not insured it is a nightmare. Most people if not insured could probably only afford to stump up several thousand as compensation for a successful claimant, unless of course they had substantial assets which would likely have to sell to provide for any compensation decided by a court. Rightly so if they or an organisation was negligent.

 

[400bhp]

Yes, you can. Any contract t&c that effectively curtails either your civil or statutory rights has no legal affect.

I think if you were seriously injured or killed as a result of some one else's negligence then you or Executors of your Estate would want and need to sue the Other party or organiser of an event, if you could no longer work and therefore provide financial support to your family or you needed round the clock care for the rest of your life. If some one is insured it is good news. If people who cause injury or damage to property are not insured it is a nightmare. Most people if not insured could probably only afford to stump up several thousand as compensation for a successful claimant, unless of course they had substantial assets which would likely have to sell to provide for any compensation decided by a court. Rightly so if they or an organisation was negligent.

I understand your point. I meant you couldn't use the policy (i.e. legal redress) to sue the other party.

 

[srw]

I understand your point. I meant you couldn't use the policy (i.e. legal redress) to sue the other party.

You could sue them, but their BC insurance wouldn't pay out? That's not the case for CTC insurance:

6. Am I insured against a claim made by another CTC member?
Answer:


Yes

http://www.ctc.org.uk/file/Public/third_party_faqs.pdf

 

[User16625]

Sorry to be slightly off topic but its not.

The OP was from a person concerned that they/us/CC may be sued for injury or damage during an "organised ride" and nothing to do with "Elf n Safety"
This in now endemic in the UK with ambulance chaser legal call-centres scraping through their lives and feeding people's greed.

Nor is it someone using Health and Safety as an excuse NOT to do something and avoid the work, hassle and cost.

It WOULD be the case if some individual purporting to be a Health and Safety person jumped in to put the stop on a ride with no real cause.

Sorry for the semi-rant, but as an experienced H&S professional that expounds a "can do" and reasonable approach to safety measures, it personally riles me when "Elf n Safety gone mad" is used when it has no ground.

What I find annoying are rules such as being made to wear a hi vis vest even in broad daylight. I say if you cannot see someone when they aint wearing a hi vis in daylight, then your not entitled to be operating dangerous machinery anyway. Also such precautions (or lack of) shouldnt be used as disclaimers. Where I work I have even been told how to pull a trolley. Elf and safety really has gone mad and it pisses me off. It pisses me off so much it makes me want to do something dangerous that I would not have felt like doing were it not for certain pedantics. How long did Evil Knievel live btw?

 

[Crankarm]

What I find annoying are rules such as being made to wear a hi vis vest even in broad daylight. I say if you cannot see someone when they aint wearing a hi vis in daylight, then your not entitled to be operating dangerous machinery anyway. Also such precautions (or lack of) shouldnt be used as disclaimers. Where I work I have even been told how to pull a trolley. Elf and safety really has gone mad and it ****es me off. It ****es me off so much it makes me want to do something dangerous that I would not have felt like doing were it not for certain pedantics. How long did Evil Knievel live btw?

Easy now, easy.

 

[middleagecyclist]

doesn't bother us over on the diving forum i also frequent and the risks of injutry/fatality are slightly greater in an underwater environment

The difference is organised SCUBA in the UK normally takes place by persons trained, assessed and insured either via BSAC or PADI while anyone can attend or organise a forum bike ride with absolutely no training, experience or insurance.

Here's an outline of a serious SCUBA incident I've been involved in:

Six divers on privately owned boat diving a deep UK SCUBA site. All trained to BSAC Advanced Diver standard or equivalent. Divers 1&2 (diver 2=me) had returned to the boat after diving, divers 3&4 were on the wreck site and divers 5&6 were kitting up to dive. Diver 3 surfaces in distress stating diver 4 unconcious 50 metres below. Diver 5 enters the water alone to attempt rescue as immediately ready. Diver 4 not recovered on sea bed or surface after prolonged search lasting more than a week. Coroners inquest found accidental death and no legal action for damages was made by the family of the deceased. Cause of death was unknown but no blame was attributed to the other divers as all normal safety precautions had been taken and immediate action was prompt and appropriate.​

​

Now imagine the divers could not demonstrate the level of training everyone had received and what precautions and safety kit they had in place. Do you think there's a possibilty the legal outcome may have been different?

I think if you begin to organise anything for a group of people, no matter how informal or matey, you inevitably take on board a certain level of responsibility. I recently organised a 100 mile night ride with nine participants. I routed it (unknown to me at the time) via a closed road. We all carried on past the road closed signs until we came to an unopened bridge. I apologised to everyone and suggested we go back and retrace the route a few miles. The group decided to climb two six foot fences and cross an unopened bridge in the dark. I was a little nervous about possible injuries or damage that might occur but luckily everyone got across safely and we had a laugh about it. I will not be making the same mistake again. I also know I wouldn't organise any informal cycling event without having at least my CTC 3rd party insurance. It's not necessarily your CC fellow forumites you have to worry about coming after you but perhaps the family of someone injured or killed who may seek damages. Even if you are found not liable you would still have to pay out for solicitors fees to defend yourself.

Food for thought i think...

 

[Andrew_Culture]

'Elf and safety gone mad.


What is even worse, I have organised a visit to the pub for the Suffolk CC's (well those near Ipswich) tomorrow night

Goodness knows what might happen if someone has one too many and says something out of place to one of the native pub dwellers or decides to do some RLJing on the way home, or even worse makes an attempt on a Strava KoM.

.

It's pure coincidence that the pub we're going to is at the top of a Strava Downhill segment...