Lesson learned NEVER ride without your helmet !

[classic33]

You don't really need a study to prove a bigger target will be hit more; it's a simply matter of geometry. Bear in mind we are talking about cross-sectional area not diameter so if a helmet is, say 40% bigger crossways it is going to be maybe 64% more likely to be hit. This may or may not be a price worth paying for the protective benefit when you are hit.

In a previous thread someone seemed perversely to be disputing this, so just take it to absurdity as a thought experiment and imagine you have a 2m wide helmet and consider if you are more likely to hit your head, rather than other parts of your body if you fall off.

In the sideways hit from the car, the impact started at the lower leg and moved up the torso. The same way it would have happened had there been no helmet on the head. The head was the last part of the body to impact on the bonnet of the car.

Helmet or not there's every chance that the same movement would have occurred. I'm not in any rush to put this theory to the test.

What is the 40% larger than, and how does that relate to a 64% increase in the chance of your head impacting?

Take the 2 metre wide helmet as an example, you'd have to ride further out, and anything trying to pass would require extra room to get past. In all probability it'd be safer. Anyone willing to try it out in real life, to prove their theory?

 

[matticus]

...
at the time I was T-boned at a junction on my way home from work in 2005. The shoulder taking the major impact on the cars bonnet. The head followed through when the upper torso stopped moving. I blame the neck being flexible for allowing that to happen.

Your neck is flexible, but it's not what most would call floppy. Try this experiment (if you want, we can do it together sometime!):
fall sideways onto a soft surface, so that your shoulder takes most of the impact. Is your head guaranteed to hit anything?

Then repeat with a big hat of some kind. Does the hat touch the ground?

(As it happens, I've done a similar experiment, using a van that T-boned me from the left. It bruised my left side a fair bit, then fired me across the road - my (bare) head didn't hit the van.)

 

[classic33]

Your neck is flexible, but it's not what most would call floppy. Try this experiment (if you want, we can do it together sometime!):
fall sideways onto a soft surface, so that your shoulder takes most of the impact. Is your head guaranteed to hit anything?

Then repeat with a big hat of some kind. Does the hat touch the ground?

(As it happens, I've done a similar experiment, using a van that T-boned me from the left. It bruised my left side a fair bit, then fired me across the road - my (bare) head didn't hit the van.)

On the experiment, the head/head & helmet, hits the ground in both. That from a "fall" at knee height and from a seated position on the floor. This has the effect of lowering the speed at which the head makes contact with the floor.

The only way to avoid making contact with the ground, is by moving the head the other way. And holding it there.

 

[Profpointy]

In the sideways hit from the car, the impact started at the lower leg and moved up the torso. The same way it would have happened had there been no helmet on the head. The head was the last part of the body to impact on the bonnet of the car.

Helmet or not there's every chance that the same movement would have occurred. I'm not in any rush to put this theory to the test.

What is the 40% larger than, and how does that relate to a 64% increase in the chance of your head impacting?

Take the 2 metre wide helmet as an example, you'd have to ride further out, and anything trying to pass would require extra room to get past. In all probability it'd be safer. Anyone willing to try it out in real life, to prove their theory?

Just realised my 40% bigger diameter making 64% area is indeed way off; it should obviously be double. Quite right!

 

[classic33]

Just realised my 40% bigger diameter making 64% area is indeed way off; it should obviously be double. Quite right!

Which measurement are you taking for comparison? And where are you taking that measurement.
A cross section of a skull can vary in size on orientation and area the cross section covers. The skull, as a whole, remains the same size.

 

[simongt]

I always use a bash hat regardless of the type of journey. I was certainly glad of it when I was rear ended three years ago. No chance of avoiding action as I obviously couldn't see the offending car. I was knocked unconcious for about twenty minutes and also sustained a broken femur. Point being that with no helmet, more serious head injuries would have been likely, although one poster insisted that no helmet wouldn't have made any difference to my injuries.
Still trying to work that one out - !

 

[matticus]

On the experiment, the head/head & helmet, hits the ground in both. That from a "fall" at knee height and from a seated position on the floor. This has the effect of lowering the speed at which the head makes contact with the floor.

The only way to avoid making contact with the ground, is by moving the head the other way. And holding it there.

When you fall over, reflexes take over and most often you try to protect your head. So yes, you "hold" it off the ground (in this scenario).

You probably do other things - maybe twist to reduce the injury, almost certainly move your arms so as to take some most of the impact.

All these situations are complex - but I'd bet that if you did enough tests, you'd find that adding a rigid cover to your head, increasing diameter by several cms, WILL increase the number of contacts with the ground. Imagine playing dodge-ball with different sized balls - would you rather be dodging the bigguns?

(I don't think anyone has done this testing, so I'm not doing real science here; but that's exactly the problem with all the pro-helmet "studies"! There are no control groups, no repeating the test with changes to the variables; they just count a bunch of different events that have already happened.)

 

[classic33]

When you fall over, reflexes take over and most often you try to protect your head. So yes, you "hold" it off the ground (in this scenario).

You probably do other things - maybe twist to reduce the injury, almost certainly move your arms so as to take some most of the impact.

All these situations are complex - but I'd bet that if you did enough tests, you'd find that adding a rigid cover to your head, increasing diameter by several cms, WILL increase the number of contacts with the ground. Imagine playing dodge-ball with different sized balls - would you rather be dodging the bigguns?

(I don't think anyone has done this testing, so I'm not doing real science here; but that's exactly the problem with all the pro-helmet "studies"! There are no control groups, no repeating the test with changes to the variables; they just count a bunch of different events that have already happened.)

I've hit my head off on the ground too many times, and not whilst riding a bike. The last head injury was in the home, whilst sat on the floor. Another hole in the head. from making contact with the ground hard enough. From a seated position, your head will be moving at close to 20mph in an uninterrupted fall, by the time contact is made with the ground.

Look at this from a different viewpoint, why are helmets (soft and hard) recommended for some people with epilepsy.
This is done by the specialists that people see, not ill informed guesses from people in the street. Or people in shops trying to sell you something.

 

[MontyVeda]

I always use a bash hat regardless of the type of journey.
...

I find that very hard to believe.

...or do you just mean journeys on a bicycle?

 

[MontyVeda]

I've hit my head off on the ground too many times, and not whilst riding a bike. The last head injury was in the home, whilst sat on the floor. Another hole in the head. from making contact with the ground hard enough. From a seated position, your head will be moving at close to 20mph in an uninterrupted fall, by the time contact is made with the ground.

Look at this from a different viewpoint, why are helmets (soft and hard) recommended for some people with epilepsy.
This is done by the specialists that people see, not ill informed guesses from people in the street. Or people in shops trying to sell you something.

on the epilepsy front, I suppose it's to do with an increased likelihood of head injury due to the epilepsy... but i am guessing.

 

[simongt]

...or do you just mean journeys on a bicycle?

Erm, yes - !
However, it does amuse me the number of cyclists who keep their bash hats on whilst they're in supermarkets. But suppose with all those shopping trolleys around, it can be a dangerous place - !

 

[matticus]

However, it does amuse me the number of cyclists who keep their bash hats on whilst they're in supermarkets. But suppose with all those shopping trolleys around, it can be a dangerous place - !

I believe they are certified for falls from normal walking height. (not impacts by motor vehicles). Slips-n-trips are not unheard of in shops, so this seems pretty sensible. Still, if it keeps you amused, that's nice ...

 

[Chief Broom]

Took my new lid out for a spin this morning, have never worn one before [except motorcycles] It was ok not to intrusive. On the way home realising i was half disguised i put on my covid mask and robbed the local bank.....win..win..

 

[MontyVeda]

Erm, yes - !
However, it does amuse me the number of cyclists who keep their bash hats on whilst they're in supermarkets. But suppose with all those shopping trolleys around, it can be a dangerous place - !

It amuses me when cyclists lock up their bike, become a pedestrian and remove their helmet... there must be some weird moment of clarity, in which when stood on their own two feet, they suddenly realise that skulls are really quite good at protecting the brain.

 

[classic33]

on the epilepsy front, I suppose it's to do with an increased likelihood of head injury due to the epilepsy... but i am guessing.

No talk of the weight or size of the helmets causing further injury, or being the cause of injury.

The damage to your head will remain the same having hit the floor.

And I'm not having a pop at you, it's looking at the issue of helmet use from a different standpoint. It covers wearing one while walking as well.