London Assembly Transport Committee's review of cycle schemes

[As Easy As Riding A Bike]

well, we've been wittering on about advantage through the entire thread. That is what will get people on bikes - when they see cyclists who look something like them swanning down bus lanes and getting to work in less time and in decent shape.

Absolutely. But do you see a problem on the horizon, at least on arterial routes? That is, if numbers increase sufficiently (and you have already mentioned congestion in bus lanes), with those numbers coming from people stepping out of their motor vehicles, presumably due to frustration at the time it is taking them to get into work - would that mean that using the car becomes an attractive option again, as congestion in the road network is ameliorated at the expense of more "congestion" in bus lanes?

(This is of course why bus lanes are necessary, not just for buses to compete on journey times, but for them to continue to remain attractive in the long term. Without lanes giving the buses the competitive advantage, more people on buses=less congestion=people going back to cars=right back to square one)

 

[dellzeqq]

Well, it's the kind of problem that we should be glad to have. And we've made the point about the bus having the competitive advantage from the off - not least because buses are, at the moment, and for the foreseeable future, making a greater contribution than bikes.

I don't personally think that the new cyclists are ex-car drivers. For one - there's too many of them. We forget how few cars there are on the roads in to Zones 1 and 2 - they just occupy a lot of space. I reckon that the Congestion Charge has changed people's travelling habits, and that cars are simply staying out of the CC Zone. And, provided that there is no Johnson (how convenient that he was named after the penis) inspired frenzy leading to bus lanes being scrubbed out I think that the competitive disadvantage 'enjoyed' by cars will persist.

 

[As Easy As Riding A Bike]

The cycalogical blog has an interesting post today that relates to "advantage."

Anyone wishing to hop on a Boris Bike on the docking station at Tavistock Street and then simply head east (legally) has to perform an enormous circuit, around Henrietta Street, Bedford Street, and then Floral Street, as shown below -

Advantage to the bicycle? None. A contraflow - segregated or otherwise - along the length of Tavistock Street would ameliorate this situation greatly.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Unfortunately, in the UK, any segregated infrastructure on that kind of roundabout is a desperate mish-mash of hopping on and off pavements, and/or convoluted and confusing pedestrian underpasses. Take this example from near me -

I try to avoid this roundabout as you get lunatics screaming around it, coming straight off a dual carriageway at 50+ mph. The radius is large enough for vehicle speeds to remain high. The "segregation" provides no advantage, and not really any more safety than cycling on the roundabout, because you have to make several crossings against high speed traffic. This roundabout is a massive barrier between the town and the satellite village - barely two miles apart, centre to centre, yet largely isolated for pedestrians and cyclists (there is a pedestrian footbridge, but the route is convoluted and lengthy).

Every word of what you say is true up until "This roundabout is a massive barrier...." Everyone knows that roundabout is bullshit including the County Council's Cycling Officer and Highway Dept. No one sane uses it or the approach to it either. In fact when I started out (again) on the local campaign road I did ask for that to be removed. It would be a death trap but lack of use..... Even if you could cross it the roads it links to are rat runs. But influential local loons sounded off when alterations/removal were proposed. So alternatives were suggested.....

A few hundred metres away cyclists and pedestrians can cross the A24 in perfect safety off road on a dedicated mixed mode route via the Tesco/Leisure Centre footbridge so why sweat it? If any cyclist is isolated from 'Sham Town in Bored Stiff Heath they need to get a map of the towns cycle routes. What about the Robin Hood Lane Golf course route in? All added after WSCC/HDC realised what a farce that roundabout, amongst other provision, is.

(PS how do you get streetview images in apost. I've forgotten)

 

[dellzeqq]

The cycalogical blog has an interesting post today that relates to "advantage."

Anyone wishing to hop on a Boris Bike on the docking station at Tavistock Street and then simply head east (legally) has to perform an enormous circuit, around Henrietta Street, Bedford Street, and then Floral Street, as shown below -

Advantage to the bicycle? None. A contraflow - segregated or otherwise - along the length of Tavistock Street would ameliorate this situation greatly.

and making roads two way with shared surfaces and interruptors and crossings would be better still, not least for pedestrians. Tavistock Street is, at present, a short sprint for van drivers, and crossing it on foot, particularly if you're not so fleet, is needlessly unpleasant. A cycle lane is neither here nor there.

 

[As Easy As Riding A Bike]

and making roads two way with shared surfaces and interruptors and crossings would be better still, not least for pedestrians. Tavistock Street is, at present, a short sprint for van drivers, and crossing it on foot, particularly if you're not so fleet, is needlessly unpleasant. A cycle lane is neither here nor there.

I think this is where we have to disagree slightly. I think driving a motor vehicle around London has to be made more difficult than using a bicycle - this is the "advantage" we are talking about - and I'm not sure that is achieved by making roads equally accessible to cars and bicycles.


A contraflow for bicycles could of course go hand in hand with pedestrian friendly measures like pedestrian crossings, or indeed shared space. And - all other things being equal - a one-way street with a contraflow bicycle lane is more pleasant for pedestrians than two-way motor vehicle flow.

 

[As Easy As Riding A Bike]

Every word of what you say is true up until "This roundabout is a massive barrier...." Everyone knows that roundabout is bullshit including the County Council's Cycling Officer and Highway Dept. No one sane uses it or the approach to it either. In fact when I started out (again) on the local campaign road I did ask for that to be removed. It would be a death trap but lack of use..... Even if you could cross it the roads it links to are rat runs. But influential local loons sounded off when alterations/removal were proposed. So alternatives were suggested.....

A few hundred metres away cyclists and pedestrians can cross the A24 in perfect safety off road on a dedicated mixed mode route via the Tesco/Leisure Centre footbridge so why sweat it? If any cyclist is isolated from 'Sham Town in Bored Stiff Heath they need to get a map of the towns cycle routes. What about the Robin Hood Lane Golf course route in? All added after WSCC/HDC realised what a farce that roundabout, amongst other provision, is.

(PS how do you get streetview images in apost. I've forgotten)

I use the Robin Hood Lane route myself, and like it - but usually for going out for leisure rides in that direction. I'm not sure that it's going to get that many people switching from their car to the bicycle for journeys into town from Broadbridge Heath. The route is circuitous -

You have to head north from the village for half a mile, when you want to be heading east. This is a disadvantage. Robin Hood Lane (in combination with Byfleets Lane) is also an increasingly heavily used rat run for people taking a shortcut from the A281 to the A264, instead of taking the main road south of Broadbridge Heath. So it's not ideal.

The "Tesco" crossing is much better, but it's still a bit of a PITA, not least negotiating the car park (IIRC there is no direct route across to the bridge?), and again the route is somewhat circuitous.

I don't know if this piece of piss-poor design has been ameliorated either -

I mean... really. Were they trying to make things difficult when they laid that footpath?

(BTW who are the "local loons" and on what grounds were they resisting? Intrigued.)

 

[As Easy As Riding A Bike]

Oh and WRT to the images of the maps, I'm just using a screen capture thing, and uploading it to tinypic. Nothing too sophisticated!

I'll send you an email later today with some questions/comments about "getting involved".

 

[dellzeqq]

I think this is where we have to disagree slightly. I think driving a motor vehicle around London has to be made more difficult than using a bicycle - this is the "advantage" we are talking about - and I'm not sure that is achieved by making roads equally accessible to cars and bicycles.


A contraflow for bicycles could of course go hand in hand with pedestrian friendly measures like pedestrian crossings, or indeed shared space. And - all other things being equal - a one-way street with a contraflow bicycle lane is more pleasant for pedestrians than two-way motor vehicle flow.

interruptors. As in bollards, designed to slow or halt through traffic. And contraflow cycle lanes are detested by pedestrians and wheelchair users, with good reason.

It is absolutely no use proposing stuff that Living Streets opposes. They are at the top of the heirarchy and with good reason.

 

[As Easy As Riding A Bike]

interruptors. As in bollards, designed to slow or halt through traffic. And contraflow cycle lanes are detested by pedestrians and wheelchair users, with good reason.

It is absolutely no use proposing stuff that Living Streets opposes. They are at the top of the heirarchy and with good reason.

Ah, I had assumed you meant interruptors like traffic lights.

A two-way street that is closed to through traffic, except cycles, would be a massive improvement.

 

[Dan B]

I think this is where we have to disagree slightly. I think driving a motor vehicle around London has to be made more difficult than using a bicycle - this is the "advantage" we are talking about - and I'm not sure that is achieved by making roads equally accessible to cars and bicycles.


A contraflow for bicycles could of course go hand in hand with pedestrian friendly measures like pedestrian crossings, or indeed shared space. And - all other things being equal - a one-way street with a contraflow bicycle lane is more pleasant for pedestrians than two-way motor vehicle flow.

In general I'd rather have two-way working for all. The one-way systems for cars are almost always the places with lots of lanes that drivers want to give it some welly (gyratories as previously discussed), which makes it unpleasant to cross the road and unpleasant to cycle. If they were to see more people in tin boxes coming towards them I think that would have a calming effect.

 

[As Easy As Riding A Bike]

In general I'd rather have two-way working for all. The one-way systems for cars are almost always the places with lots of lanes that drivers want to give it some welly (gyratories as previously discussed), which makes it unpleasant to cross the road and unpleasant to cycle. If they were to see more people in tin boxes coming towards them I think that would have a calming effect.

Oh, absolutely, I agree, large multi-lane gyratories are horrible.

But they are a different kettle of fish from the "quieter" one-way streets in central London.

 

[dellzeqq]

I suppose circumstances differ, but most one way streets, even the ones that don't have much traffic, have higher vehicle speeds. That, I suppose, is the idea. Tavistock Street is no exception, and it's one of those streets that could do with a bit of imaginative thinking. If you put bollards to stop through traffic on Tavistock Street, and make Burleigh Street a dead end, you'd have quieter, more pedestrian friendly streets

The thing is that Tavistock Street shouldn't be on the way to somewhere else - it's a destination street.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

You have to head north from the village for half a mile, when you want to be heading east. This is a disadvantage. Robin Hood Lane (in combination with Byfleets Lane) is also an increasingly heavily used rat run for people taking a shortcut from the A281 to the A264, instead of taking the main road south of Broadbridge Heath. So it's not ideal.

Life is full of compromise. I accept the increasing traffic point btw. The 'disadvantage' cuts two ways; cyclists rarely want to take the most direct route preferring quietness over directness in out of town situations. After all what is the odd extra km when you're on your bike. I remain to be convinced that any amount of cycling infrastructure from BH to Town including a direct cycles only overpass would persuade more than a handful of people onto bikes over cars. Most are not wedded to cars but welded to them.

The "Tesco" crossing is much better, but it's still a bit of a PITA, not least negotiating the car park (IIRC there is no direct route across to the bridge?), and again the route is somewhat circuitous.

The route goes around the southern edge of the car park thus avoiding conflict with vehicles in favour of conflict with pedestrians. Lesser of two evils. Longer? yes. onerously so? hardly. and it is a well used route.

Don't get me started on the balls up made when Tesco was redeveloped. I had a whole file of correspondence highlighting where Tesco ignored undertakings they had given. HDC are in thrall to big business and are not interested in enforcing planning conditions. the east street pseudo pedestrianisation almost saw the two way cycle route extinguished but there local businesses who challenged the legality of the scheme as originally proposed played somewhat into the cyclists hands. We have a couple of very pro cycling libdem councillors and a couple of officers are keen, whilst some of the senior officers are at least open to listening to ideas. But there is no money, and within the county other towns, Crawley, Worthing and Chichester are years ahead of us in being on the radar.

I mean... really. Were they trying to make things difficult when they laid that footpath?

they giveth not a stuff about those assumed so poor as to have to walk or cycle. The very existence of such stores depends on the infernal combustion engine. I never shop there on principle, and because I'm a snob and live within walking distance of Waitrose.

(BTW who are the "local loons" and on what grounds were they resisting? Intrigued.)

you have PM

 

[sheddy]

British v Dutch Streets - look for the 10 sets of photos

http://hembrow.blogs...ch-streets.html


Send your Council bods on this - http://hembrow.eu/cycling/studytour.html