Magic white bottle

[Rob3rt]

My assertion that it is nonsense versus your assertion that it works...

I have backed up my assertion with a very simple chemical equation that explains what happens when you ingest bicarb.

I do generally agree with your point about "some person on a forum" though.

It is not just my assertion though is it? Read the literature!

 

[winjim]

Why should I? You've already said that you haven't!

I have given you, in this thread, a very simple chemical reason why ingestion of bicarb cannot possibly affect acid/base metabolism. What evidence do you have to back up your argument?

FWIW, I am of the opinion that the effects of lactate buildup on exercise have been rather overstated and that "lactic acid" has become a bit of a buzzword, probably because it contains the word "acid", which sounds scary.

 

[Rob3rt]

I have not said that I did not read any studies. I have read a collection of studies. The vast majority state that at the right dosage (typically around 300mg per kg of body mass), it works to improve performance in some disciplines (most notably in disciplines with repeat "sprint" efforts).

I did however, say that I have not spent the considerable time required to scrutinise the methodology of individual studies in order to ascertain whether or not the research is "good" research. The reason being, I am not that interested and I have no intention of ingesting it!

What evidence have I got? The "evidence" I have is smeared throughout probably hundreds of peer reviewed scientific articles, not so easy to post that in a thread is it! However, here is one nice clean quote which goes against both of our past posts(sort of) plus a few others:

This study demonstrates that alkali ingestion results in significant shifts in the acid-base balance of the blood and has a small, but non-significant, effect on anaerobic power and capacity as measured in a series of 3 Wingate Anaerobic Tests

The aim of this study was to determine whether a dose of 300-mg · kg−1 body mass of sodium bicarbonate would effect a high-intensity, 1- h maximal cycle ergometer effort. Ten male, well-trained [maximum oxygen consumption 67.3 (3.3) ml · kg−1 · min−1, mean (SD)] volunteer cyclists acted as subjects. Each undertook either a control (C), placebo (P), or experimental (E) ride in a random, double-blind fashion on a modified, air-braked cycle ergometer, attached to a personal computer to which the work and power data was downloaded at 10 Hz. Fingertip blood was sampled at 10-min intervals throughout the exercise. Blood was also sampled at 1, 3, 5, and 10 min post-exercise. Blood was analysed for lactate, partial pressure of Carbon dioxide and oxygen, pH and plasma bicarbonate (HCO−3) concentration. Randomly chosen pairs of subjects were asked to complete as much work as possible during the 60-min exercise periods in an openly competitive situation. The sodium bicarbonate had the desired effect of increasing blood HCO−3 prior to the start of the test. The subjects in E completed 950.9 (81.1) kJ of work, which was significantly more (F(2,27) = 5.28, P < 0.01) than during either the C [835.5 (100.2) kJ] or P [839.0 (88.6) kJ] trials. No differences were seen in peak power or in the power:mass ratio between these three groups. The results of this study suggest that sodium bicarbonate may be used to offset the fatigue process during high-intensity, aerobic cycling lasting 60 min.

Results show that NaHCO3 ingestion clearly results in a more alkaline extracellular environment. The dosage, however, was only moderately related to the increase in pH and HCO3- . Overall, performance was enhanced but the range of effect sizes was large, -0.12 to 2.87. In studies that measured time to exhaustion, there was a mean 27 +/- 20% increase in duration. The treatment effect, however, was only weakly related to the degree of induced alkalosis.

Numerous studies have used exogenous administration of sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) and sodium citrate (Na-citrate) in an attempt to enhance human performance. After ingestion of NaHCO3 and Nacitrate, two observations have been made: (a) There was great individual variability in the ergogenic benefit reached, which can be attributed to the level of physical conditioning of the subjects and to their tolerance of the buffer substance; and (b) the subjects who had ingested NaHCO3 and Na-citrate show higher levels of pH, bicarbonate, and lactate ions concentrations in their exercising blood than do the subjects who had ingested the placebo. A majority of the studies have suggested that the ingestion of both substances provides an ergogenic effect due to the establishment and maintenance of an elevated pH level during exercise. However, the exact mechanism by which the ergogenic effects occur has not been demonstrated conclusively. Sodium bicarbonate and Na-citrate seem to be effective in activities with a sufficient duration to generate a difference in the hydrogen ion gradient, characterized by a very high intensity and involving large muscular groups. However, in activities of equally high intensity, but with longer duration, the results obtained have been conflicting and inconclusive.

 

[palinurus]

Small but non-significant effect?

I can understand reporting a small but significant effect, or no effect, but why small but non-significant?

 

[Rob3rt]

Small but non-significant effect?

I can understand reporting a small but significant effect, or no effect, but why small but non-significant?

Results are results. It has an effect (i.e. it didn't have zero effect), but the effect is not significant, according to this study.

According to many other studies the effect is stated to be significant.

As I said before, there are shed loads of studies out there. I don't have the time not inclination to read and scrutinise them all. I would however consider the peer reviewing process to be a some form of bullshit filter (although it is not infalliable) and taking a rather broad survey of the literature and seeing that the majority of the time the result was that it was effective for certain types of activity (and acknowledging that some studies say it isn't), I am inclined to side with the majority of peer reviewed research.

 

[palinurus]

Just odd wording, I'll read the paper now...

 

[winjim]

Small but non-significant effect?

I can understand reporting a small but significant effect, or no effect, but why small but non-significant?

Because you should report all your results, significant or not. Otherwise you leave yourself open to accusations of publication bias.

It also puts the results into the literature so that other scientists (or people arguing the toss on cycling forums) can decide for themselves whether they consider them to be significant.

 

[palinurus]

Because you should report all your results, significant or not. Otherwise you leave yourself open to accusations of publication bias.

It also puts the results into the literature so that other scientists (or people arguing the toss on cycling forums) can decide for themselves whether they consider them to be significant.

Ta.

 

[winjim]

OK, so thinking about this I can imagine that the ingestion of truly heroic amounts of sodium bicarb (and 0.3 g/kg is about 20g of the stuff for 65kg me) could cause transient alkalosis by sequestering H+ from stomach acid. This is a similar mechanism to vomiting induced alkalosis. However, I think this should probably correct itself pretty quickly in a healthy individual. (And can't be very good for you)

Still think lactic acid's a red herring though.

 

[Shut Up Legs]

What's this "lactic acid" people keep talking about?

http://www.indoorcyclingassociation.com/blog/the-myth-of-lactic-acid-refuses-to-go-away/

http://www.bicycling.com/training-nutrition/training-fitness/lactic-acid-101

http://running.competitor.com/2010/01/training/the-lactic-acid-myths_7938

 

[winjim]

It's a buzzword that sports commentators can use to make themselves sound all sciency.