Massive Investment In Cycling Announced...

[rogerzilla]

I'm really not a fan of cyclepaths. Shared with pedestrians and dogs, which is just as dangerous as riding on the pavement. Lost priority at every side road. Thoroughly glassed in the chavvier areas. Not salted in winter.

The worst thing is that they make riding on the road more dangerous, because of "punishment passes" and abuse from irate drivers who think you should be on the path. The first 5 miles of the Dunwich Dynamo are absolutely horrible now.

 

[derrick]

It took Holland a long time to get where it is. We are a long way behind. But hopefully we will catch up.😁

 

[confusedcyclist]

It took Holland a long time to get where it is. We are a long way behind. But hopefully we will catch up.😁

In order to catch up, we would have to at least make a start!

 

[mjr]

I'm really not a fan of cyclepaths. Shared with pedestrians and dogs, which is just as dangerous as riding on the pavement. Lost priority at every side road. Thoroughly glassed in the chavvier areas. Not salted in winter.

The worst thing is that they make riding on the road more dangerous, because of "punishment passes" and abuse from irate drivers who think you should be on the path. The first 5 miles of the Dunwich Dynamo are absolutely horrible now.

Apart from the last sentence because I've not done a Dunwich Dynamo before and after, I know that none of the above are universally true. The trouble in the UK is that you never know which of the problems any given cycleway will have, if any. The national government is still missing in action about cycling, abdicating their responsibility to a postcode lottery of good and crap councils.

 

[derrick]

In order to catch up, we would have to at least make a start!

The problem we have is with the motorist, When the government get round to educating them nothing will change,

 

[confusedcyclist]

The problem we have is with the motorist, When the government get round to educating them nothing will change,

EDIT, ok I totally misread your post. But... I never said anything about educating drivers?

OK I think I worked out what you mean, but can you clarify what you are saying exactly as I don't want to second guess you.

 

[derrick]

Really? Is that why 98% of the population won't cycle on UK roads? Driver education? I was taught to be careful of vulnerable road users, as were most drivers so I doubt education is the issue. It seems that most of the essential skills for driving safely get tossed out the window as soon as a typical driver gets their license. We have to design our infrastructure with idiots in mind. Make it idiot proof. Maybe cyclists that frequent this forum are confident of cycling on the road, and who wouldn't want see motorists held to account and trained how drive around cyclists on quiet roads, but in reality, if we remove the conflict between cyclists and motorists, then the opportunity for fear and tragedy is massively reduced. We can easily engineer these problems away. Raised kerbs, recessed junctions, the model is proven overseas, we just need the political will. Infrastructure is paid for once (not counting maintenance of course) and lasts a long time. Education seems to be swiftly forgotten by most drivers, or only recalled when it suits.

EDIT, ok I totally misread your post. Doh. I never said anything about educating drivers...

I have just come back from Spain, they have none of that in Calpe, the motorist gave us plenty of room, no hooting apart from a british driver in a hire car,

 

[confusedcyclist]

I have just come back from Spain, they have none of that in Calpe, the motorist gave us plenty of room, no hooting apart from a british driver in a hire car,

Education is important, no doubt about it. Even in countries with gold standard infra like NL, there can't be cycle paths everywhere, hence the need for people friendly residential streets, and low speed zones, or entire areas where motors are forbidden. However, fear of being crushed by trams, buses, or left turning lorries etc cannot be alleviated with paint or slow speeds. Motorists will always make mistakes. You can't elimate the mistakes, so take people out of harms way as much as you can. We shouldn't have to run the gauntlet to get to work on a bike. I have visited other parts of Spain and the standard of driving I have witnessed falls far below that I see in the UK. NL & DK have demonstrated their models work and ordinary people in ordinary clothes are cycling for a variety of reasons and trips, they have cycling modal share figures Spain can't compete with. That says it all.

 

[rogerzilla]

It's a cultural thing. In Europe, cyclists are normal people or sportsmen to be admired. Here, they're perverts who don't pay road tax and hold up hard-working white van man. Why can't they drive to the gym if they want to keep fit?

 

[HMS_Dave]

There is a culture in this country with regards to obtaining a Driving Licence. You are taught how to drive, You are taught theory and hazard perception and you are taught even how to perform basic checks on your car, fluids and what not and are tested on all these. But the moment you have that 'you have passed' moment, it all goes out of the window and it's a free for all. Id say from personal observation about 80% of motorists refuse to indicate, many develop road rage and a raging desire to get past that Cyclist or Bus, whatever the cost maybe... Even as driving tests have become more robust also with the inclusion of theory, it really hasn't helped at all. I think education cannot answer this, it is ingrained in our society. There could be an argument perhaps that year on year up until recent years road safety has improved, but i argue that it is because car technology has improved and not that driving standards have increased because it is my opinion and has gotten worse...

 

[mjr]

There is a culture in this country with regards to obtaining a Driving Licence. You are taught how to drive, You are taught theory and hazard perception and you are taught even how to perform basic checks on your car, fluids and what not and are tested on all these. But the moment you have that 'you have passed' moment, it all goes out of the window and it's a free for all.

I agree. There's very little enforcement, the home sec has said roads policing isn't a priority and you have to be really really crap to be retested. I think that lack of even basic checks that drivers are keeping current is why I've been shouted at by road rage drivers for (among other things), cycling across a zebra crossing (legal since 2016), cycling the opposite way on a "one way except cycles" (legal since 1989, stronger since 2016), using flashing lights (legal since 2004 maybe), cycling across a toucan crossing (legal since 1980s if not before), not using cycleways (always legal) and not cycling on the footpath (illegal since before the bicycle was invented).

There should be at least a theory retest when you renew your photo card every ten years. It's horrible that we've probably drivers out there who have had neither knowledge not eyesight checked in 50 years.

 

[derrick]

Just need bigger fines for motoring offences.

 

[confusedcyclist]

Unfortunately you can't fix stupid, even with fines. Stupid people will always be stupid. This is the whole point of removing cyclists from harms way, and its a big part of why encouraging cyclists to adorn themselves in hi-hiz and assorted PPE does magically increase cycling rates. To be frank, I couldn't give a flying fark if the idiot who mows me down gets to face the prospect of a fine, because the damage is already done to me. In your faith of the effectiveness of sanctions, you are assuming that people who are doing you harm are 'bandits'. In fact it's far more likely that they are just plain stupid (law 1). Bandit's harm others are usually motivated by some gain. You system breaks down when your faith is placed in measures that are intended to counter bandits is misdirected at stupid people. If you are not familiar with this concept, refer to the link below. No amount of financial hardship experienced by an idiot undoes life changing injuries to me or my loved ones. We've got to remove the idiots in 2 tonne death machines from the equation. That means segregation.

If you haven't already, familiarise yourself with 'THE BASIC LAWS OF HUMAN STUPIDITY' By Carlo M. Cipolla
http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-stupidity/

Whilst the above has a humorous slant (the illustrations), it's actually based and thoughtful and objective observations of human nature. It's a critical part of any joined up systems thinking. Forgetting to account for stupid people in any system, well, it's farking stupid.

 

[dodgy]

cycling across a zebra crossing (legal since 2016)

I had no idea about that one.

 

[mjr]

I had no idea about that one.

Strictly speaking, it's always been legal but you didn't have walker-like precedence over carriageway traffic. Since 2016, if there are cycle symbols alongside the usual zebra markings, you have precedence crossing. These are called parallel crossings in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 and section 25 crossings refers to these and zebras.

However, with so many ignorant drivers, it's a brave cyclist who doesn't beware them at crossings. :-(