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Mechanical doping

Discussion in 'Pro Cycling (Road and Track Racing)' started by themosquitoking, 11 May 2015.

  1. EasyPeez

    EasyPeez Über Member

    I think my disbelief was possibly in part based on my complete inexperience of carbon fibre bikes....I'm pretty sure I couldn't get the back wheel to spin my steely like that!
    I did think it hard to understand why he'd be using a motor while freewheeling on a quick descent.
     
  2. jarlrmai

    jarlrmai Veteran

    http://fittish.deadspin.com/secret-thermal-camera-footage-allegedly-shows-seven-pro-1771492666

    So independent thermal imaging yada yada.

    Waste of time, doesn't prove anything, seems another chance to insinuate Froome is a cheat, by iterpersing some footage of him.
     
    Last edited: 18 Apr 2016
  3. deptfordmarmoset

    deptfordmarmoset Full time tea drinker

    Location:
    Armonmy Way
    @Marmion dug out a link off cyclinghub.tv to the French language Stade 2 broadcast. Worth watching if you understand French.

    http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1515
    http://cyclinghub.tv/post.php?id=1516
     
  4. Foghat

    Foghat Veteran

    What a ridiculous head-in-the-sand response. Such investigative journalism needs to be commended.

    One thing it proves beyond reasonable doubt is that several pro riders in those races had heat sources in their bikes that i) cannot be satisfactorily explained and ii) strongly indicate nefarious activity. Not remotely a waste of time - quite the opposite in fact.

    It also adds considerable weight to the view that Cancellara was up to this in the 2010 Flanders and Roubaix events, the footage from which ties in extremely well with the evidence of how the cheating is done in the Stade 2 documentary. I note that Cancellara seems not to have managed to replicate the absurdly powerful-but-incredibly-smooth accelerations in those two events, suggesting that he was indeed rumbled at the time and has since refrained (or perhaps refined the implementation so that the accelerations weren't so comically implausible and the fingerwork was less obvious).

    If you're so convinced the heat sources filmed are legitimately present and that all the other circumstantial evidence should be ignored, or that the journalists are fabricating or misinterpreting evidence, how about offering potential explanations for the presence of the heat sources and for the rest of the deeply suspicious evidence, rather than dismissing it as a 'waste of time'? Brian Cookson was obviously gravely concerned by what he saw - it was written all over his face, and his nervous swallowing as he watched, no doubt frantically considering the repercussions this could have.

    Or do you really think that the journalists' sour grapes over non-French victories, or over Froome, is the more likely explanation for all this evidence of motors in bikes?

    I admit, though, that the inclusion of video of Froome is possibly unjustified given the lack of evidence against him - the only 'evidence' apparently being that he pedals very quickly when attacking uphill (conveniently forgetting he always looks laboured and ungainly when doing it, and never particularly implausible the way Cancellara was in those 2010 attacks, especially in Paris-Roubaix).
     
    Last edited: 18 Apr 2016
  5. jarlrmai

    jarlrmai Veteran

    Is there any translation of what the engineer is saying?

    Some of the hot spots they seem to be pointing out don't look much hotter than other areas of the bike that might be getting warm from friction, certainly nowhere near the heat in the demo they did (the one just before they added some random stock footage of Froome attacking on some climbs)
     
  6. ColinJ

    ColinJ Slow Hill Climber/Lift avoider!

    There might some friction causing heat in the rear hub or the bottom bracket (though let's face it - friction in bearings in a pro bike should be tiny) but where would the heat come from going up the seat tube from the BB? That definitely looks very suspicious!
     
    BrumJim and Hont like this.
  7. oldroadman

    oldroadman Veteran

    Location:
    Ubique
    Good gracious, journalists make up stories to grab headlines? Whatever next! Now, where's my Daily Mail/Express/Sun/whatever, I'd best check everything I read is 100% true and can be backed up with credible corroborated evidence....
     
  8. jarlrmai

    jarlrmai Veteran

    If you look at the colour range on the cameras they are set to show from 8.9 degrees to 25.7, the heat coming off the hub at 8:22 in the YT version of the doc looks of be about 1/4 up from 8.9 so not really that hot over a range of 16 degrees C.

    Which part in the video (not the FLIR demo) show's the heat going up the seat tube?
     
  9. Hont

    Hont Veteran

    Location:
    Bromsgrove
    That was the part that got me wondering. I can't find an innocent explanation for heat in that area - unless you're riding on a freshly welded metal bike or you've spilt some tea from your bidon ;)

    But looking at it again, that image only appears to be from when they were demonstrating the motors. The footage from the races is nothing like as damning. In fact, you could argue that none of the race footage shows the same heat profile, so nobody is using that motor.
     
    Last edited: 18 Apr 2016
  10. Hont

    Hont Veteran

    Location:
    Bromsgrove
    I also notice they're now saying these motors can do 250 watts. That's almost a sprint for me! :eek: ;)
     
    raleighnut likes this.
  11. ColinJ

    ColinJ Slow Hill Climber/Lift avoider!

    Dodgy hot spot in seat tube.jpg

    :whistle:
     
  12. Stephen C

    Stephen C Senior Member

    It isn't particularly conclusive, assuming the colour range is linear, it puts the wheel rim at about 14.5 degrees C, not exactly hot. Add into it that any motor will not be 100% efficient, I would expect there to be more heat produced from a motor.

    Just to be clear, I'm not saying it definitely doesn't happen, it's just the evidence doesn't look that convincing to me.
     
  13. Hont

    Hont Veteran

    Location:
    Bromsgrove
    That's not from a race. That's the demonstration of the motor, you can see the bit straight after where he has both feet off the pedals but they're still turning. That's the giveaway. I don't think even Riccardo Ricco would be that blatant.:smile:
     
    jarlrmai likes this.
  14. Foghat

    Foghat Veteran

    Remember to compare and contrast with other rear hubs going past at the same time. Starting at 19:00 is a sequence showing some bikes going past with rear hubs at very clear low temperature barely above background, then one goes by several degrees warmer than those. Admittedly, the heatmeter scale depicted on screen takes a jump as the car goes past, presumably reacting to the high heat output of the engine etc, but, crucially, the rider in front of the suspect bike shows a consistent low rear hub temperature both before and after the car goes past, so the suspect hub is definitely several degrees warmer than the others and it's not just a victim of the car affecting the meter.

    Potentially very suspicious, especially as further footage shows other rear hubs all at the same low temperature, and the Hungarian motor supplier seems to be amused at how blatant the difference is.

    Now, maybe it could be argued that that particular hub design is especially insulating, leading to heat build up from normal use, and there is no motor. Or perhaps the difference is only a few degrees because he's only just switched a motor on, or he had it on lower down the climb and it's cooling off. Whatever the reason for the difference, contrary to the 'waste-of-time' view advocated by jarlrmai and no doubt plenty of others, it's perfectly acceptable and indeed desirable for journalists to investigate, given i) the recent discovery in van den Driessche's bike, ii) the claims from people like ex-pro Cassani, iii) the evidence of the motor designers, iv) the dubious activities of the team mechanics shown in the film, v) all the odd bike-switching that's been witnessed, vi) the perceived inadequacy of UCI bike-testing, vii) the track record professional sports have for cheating, viii) the widespread suspicion that exists, and, of course, ix) Cancellara's preposterously effortless Paris-Roubaix acceleration of 2010.
     
    Last edited: 18 Apr 2016
    Flying_Monkey likes this.
  15. deptfordmarmoset

    deptfordmarmoset Full time tea drinker

    Location:
    Armonmy Way
    The presenter states that thermal imaging cameras can be hired for under €100 per day. Where there's doubt.....

    I noticed that the brightest hot point for the suspected hub motors, seen at the end, was from the non-drive side of the bike - the back of the biggest sprocket. The bike might be using the cassette as a heat sink - I'd guess they'd be pretty good for that - which might also explain the less blatant glow from the drive side if they were using the same type of motor.