Mechanical doping

[ColinJ]

Which part in the video (not the FLIR demo) show's the heat going up the seat tube?

 

[Stephen C]

If you look at the colour range on the cameras they are set to show from 8.9 degrees to 25.7, the heat coming off the hub at 8:22 in the YT version of the doc looks of be about 1/4 up from 8.9 so not really that hot over a range of 16 degrees C.

Which part in the video (not the FLIR demo) show's the heat going up the seat tube?

It isn't particularly conclusive, assuming the colour range is linear, it puts the wheel rim at about 14.5 degrees C, not exactly hot. Add into it that any motor will not be 100% efficient, I would expect there to be more heat produced from a motor.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it definitely doesn't happen, it's just the evidence doesn't look that convincing to me.

 

[Hont]

View attachment 125294

That's not from a race. That's the demonstration of the motor, you can see the bit straight after where he has both feet off the pedals but they're still turning. That's the giveaway. I don't think even Riccardo Ricco would be that blatant.

 

[Foghat]

It isn't particularly conclusive, assuming the colour range is linear, it puts the wheel rim at about 14.5 degrees C, not exactly hot. Add into it that any motor will not be 100% efficient, I would expect there to be more heat produced from a motor.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it definitely doesn't happen, it's just the evidence doesn't look that convincing to me.

Remember to compare and contrast with other rear hubs going past at the same time. Starting at 19:00 is a sequence showing some bikes going past with rear hubs at very clear low temperature barely above background, then one goes by several degrees warmer than those. Admittedly, the heatmeter scale depicted on screen takes a jump as the car goes past, presumably reacting to the high heat output of the engine etc, but, crucially, the rider in front of the suspect bike shows a consistent low rear hub temperature both before and after the car goes past, so the suspect hub is definitely several degrees warmer than the others and it's not just a victim of the car affecting the meter.

Potentially very suspicious, especially as further footage shows other rear hubs all at the same low temperature, and the Hungarian motor supplier seems to be amused at how blatant the difference is.

Now, maybe it could be argued that that particular hub design is especially insulating, leading to heat build up from normal use, and there is no motor. Or perhaps the difference is only a few degrees because he's only just switched a motor on, or he had it on lower down the climb and it's cooling off. Whatever the reason for the difference, contrary to the 'waste-of-time' view advocated by jarlrmai and no doubt plenty of others, it's perfectly acceptable and indeed desirable for journalists to investigate, given i) the recent discovery in van den Driessche's bike, ii) the claims from people like ex-pro Cassani, iii) the evidence of the motor designers, iv) the dubious activities of the team mechanics shown in the film, v) all the odd bike-switching that's been witnessed, vi) the perceived inadequacy of UCI bike-testing, vii) the track record professional sports have for cheating, viii) the widespread suspicion that exists, and, of course, ix) Cancellara's preposterously effortless Paris-Roubaix acceleration of 2010.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

The presenter states that thermal imaging cameras can be hired for under €100 per day. Where there's doubt.....

I noticed that the brightest hot point for the suspected hub motors, seen at the end, was from the non-drive side of the bike - the back of the biggest sprocket. The bike might be using the cassette as a heat sink - I'd guess they'd be pretty good for that - which might also explain the less blatant glow from the drive side if they were using the same type of motor.

 

[ColinJ]

That's not from a race. That's the demonstration of the motor, you can see the bit straight after where he has both feet off the pedals but they're still turning. That's the giveaway. I don't think even Riccardo Ricco would be that blatant.

Ah, ok - yes! I just searched through for the bit I remembered and didn't spot the context.

Well, it shows that thermal cameras would be good at detecting that kind of cheating so the UCI should be using them.

As for Ricco ... he WAS that blatant! I remember one race when he romped up a stupidly steep stage finish and leapt off his bike at the top as if he had just been for a pootle round his local park while some of the best pros in the world had got off behind him and were walking their bikes to the finish!

 

[400bhp]

I mentioned this a long time ago here. Power data should be supplied to the UCI for all pros in each race.

There must be a way to detect a power motor from the data, irrespective of simply additional power over and above the norm for a rider.. The motor itself will have little to no "white noise"for example. Overall the power graph should be smoother for someone using a motor.

 

[DRM]

If a motor is in use it shouldn't get hot, only warm,a motor that is hot is one that is failing, ie the brushes or commutator are worn and arcing, bearings starting to collapse etc, the heat detecting cameras are good, I was speaking to a sparky at a site I was working at who was using one to inspect mains distribution boards for iffy connections/mcb's and had found an mcb that was just starting to fail, the heat was there to see, if a pro bike was generating heat at the bottom bracket I would personally be suspicious as the bikes are meticulously maintained and surely would never be allowed to get in such a state, with all those mechanics prepping bikes and having enough parts to sink a battleship, I think the cameras should be used discreetly during races, and anyone found with a motor should be dropped on like a ton of bricks by the UCI.

 

[jarlrmai]

A difference of a few degrees, could be a silvered crank in the sun versus a matt black one in the sun.

However yeah I think it does need some more scientific investigation, what made me doubtful was the demo they did showed a massive difference in temp and then when they showed the footage of riders apparently using motors, the difference was far less noticeable.

 

[Crackle]

Perhaps someone could test the detection technology with some real life examples. Set it up, ride a load of bikes past it a load of times, in different conditions, some with and some without and see how effective it is when they don't know up front which is which.

I prefer the current witchfinder approach. That way everyone is an expert.

 

[Oldfentiger]

I confess I haven't read everything in this thread. However if I were to design this I'd use a brushless motor with LiPo battery. These type of motors have high power output for their size and run cooler than old-tech DC motors. 250W is quite a modest output for these motors.
In fact more heat would be produced by the battery, but then the battery pack could be located anywhere on the bike.

 

[Stephen C]

A difference of a few degrees, could be a silvered crank in the sun versus a matt black one in the sun.

However yeah I think it does need some more scientific investigation, what made me doubtful was the demo they did showed a massive difference in temp and then when they showed the footage of riders apparently using motors, the difference was far less noticeable.

It strikes me that they had reached their conclusions first and then tried to fit what they had when it was obvious nobody was using the BB motors. The warm rims could be, as you suggest, simply be matt black material in the sun!

 

[Dogtrousers]

It seems to me that heat cameras may be a good method of screening or targeting specific bikes for testing, but it's insufficient to actually be used as a test itself. Hot spots may indicate a motor, but equally may be due to other reasons.

But what is actually going to happen, or is already happening, is that footage that says "this bike may be worth investigating further" will be interpreted as "this rider is most definitely and undeniably a great big cheaty Mc Cheatface". And any bit of footage that is even slightly unusual, if the rider happens to be already under suspicion (justifiably or not), will be taken as solid proof.

This is going to be fun.

 

[themosquitoking]

Right, a bicycle frame is made of tubes, carbon tubes usually in the pro peloton. Carbon isn't a great conductor of heat so if a thermal camera several metres away is able to detect a difference of a degree or more in a localised spot within a particular tube i would imagine that would equate to several degrees difference in those specific locations actually inside the frame. A motor would do that.

 

[oldroadman]

I fooled 'em all in my race days, motors in each shoe, connected by an under plaster/legwarmer cable to a battery suppository. On off switch in a very odd place. Not very effective but the tingle from the battery was quite nice....