Microphones: Jack Plug 'V' XLR

[Mr Pig]

Any of you chimps know about mic cables? ;0)

We're about to buy a Karaoke player for little sprog's Christmas. Said player has two jack mic sockets on the front and also two Cannon/XLR sockets on the back. Obviously, using the jack sockets would be simpler. Is there any real reason for using the XLR ones instead? Will it sound better or be less likely to suffer noise?

Thank you for any advice :0)

 

[Norm]

What sort of quality do you need?

Pro kit comes with XLR sockets, so you'll only get decent mics and cables if you use that option. However, it's priced to match! £60-odd for a Shure SM58 and £20 for a cable, for instance, will give you pro-standard kit, which is rather lovely. I used to play / sing in a band, so I've got the kit and a lush valve amplifier, and Small Norm II loves screeching along to stuff.

1/4" TSR cables should be more-than adequate for a domestic karaoke kit, though.

I'm trying not to sound snobby here, and I obviously don't know what player you've got anyway, but most karaoke machines wouldn't be able to play the difference between the two connector types anyway.

There is, though, something very lovely about holding a properly weighted microphone, used in conjunction with a proper stand... etc

 

[BigonaBianchi]

Pro mics all use xlr...but on a kareole machinme I doubt you'd tell the difference..basically what he said above

 

[Mr Pig]

most karaoke machines wouldn't be able to play the difference between the two connector types anyway.

This is the Kam player I'm looking at: LINK It's supposed to have a decent mic input.

Obviously SM58s are a tad OTT so I'm looking at These Behringer mics: LINK They're supposed to be very close to SM58 sound but a fifth of the price.

However, all this is going through my low-rent Yamaha home cinema amp and crappy little Mission speakers so any differences may not make it very far. It might get plugged into the big hi-fi now and then though which certainly would be revealing enough.

 

[Ghost Donkey]

The thing to watch out for is not all XLR connections are balanced, and this is where the benefit of XLR comes in. ANORAK WARNING: SKIP IF PREFERRED From memory (googling would be cheating) and without going into too much detail XLR stands for (e)Xternal Line Return and is used as a way of reducing signal interference. Start using quality cables and other clever stuff like starquad cables (two wires per signal twisted through the cable) and it can make a difference. I've done various AV jobs and on occasions have plugged in something unbalanced and noticed the interference straight away which was removed by using a balanced line. While balancing can reduce noise interference there is only so much the laws of physics will allow it to achieve. Try running balanced XLR cables next to power cables for a good example of this.

Unbalanced kit and cables still use XLR connectors for convenience as it is industry standard. I have a cheap unbalanced microphone which is a good example of this. Of course you can have balanced XLR connections terminating to balanced quarter inch jack connections at the other end of the cable also, just to confuse you even more. I have used sound desks with balanced quarter inch jack inputs as well as XLR.

ANORAK BIT OVER

Anorak bullsh!t over then, it comes down to what you are using. If the karaoke machine does not support balanced inputs then don't bother buying a more expensive microphone with a balanced output. An unbalanced signal is effectively the same coming out of an XLR connector as it is coming out of a jack plug. I've made up enough to cables in the past to confirm this in the real world. A lot of cheap microphones such as mine come with a cable which is a female XLR at the microphone end and a male quarter inch jack at the end you are supposed to plug into something. If you need it to terminate in a male XLR you can use a male to female XLR cable as an alternative if you have one.

 

[Mr Pig]

So, are balanced mics different from normal ones? None of the mics I've looked at mention being balanced. I'm going to ask if the inputs on the unit are balanced on Saturday.

My speakers have got Cannon/XLR plugs.

You should've Googled XLR by the way ;0) Don't worry about it, I had no idea what it stood for until I looked it up.

 

[Ghost Donkey]

Balanced XLRs have the connectors wired differently and it is a different way of sending a signal. Unbalanced and balanced are compatible if you plug one into the other. Pro kit usually uses balanced signals for noise reduction. Any cable can have an XLR connector attached. The XLR connector is one thing, a balanced signal is another although the two are usually associated. XLR connectors can be used for a variety of things. They are sturdy, easy to solder, easy to plug in and unplug and come in a large variety (3-pins or more). A quick wikipedia guide to balanced signals can be found here.

The main point is it is not worth paying more money for a balanced output microphone if you do not have a balanced input. Without meaning to sound snobbish (my TV was the cheapest wide screen CRT they had at Asda if it helps ) for home karaoke it's most likely not worth having balanced audio. If you drink and do karaoke you definately won't need it .

When I open up my cheap microphone I can see from the wiring that it is unbalanced. It was recommended to me by a friend who had read it had similar characteristics of a branded one but the output is unbalanced which is one way of saving money.

 

[redjedi]

That was a bit geeky Ghost Rider, unfortunately I understood almost everything you said, having sold professional PA systems for a living

To simplify it a bit for Mr Pig. Balanced connectors and cables will get rid of any "buzzing" sound you may hear when you plug in your mics.

After looking at the manual for the Kam player it doesn't mention that the inputs are balanced. This is usually quite an important thing to mention, so my guess would be that they are un-balanced inputs.

As the 2 sets of inputs will be linked up internally it won't make much difference which you use.

Most XLR cables are balanced now and a balanced XLR-Jack cable will have a stereo jack plug on it (ie it has 2 black rings around the plug). Either of these will do a good job.

The Behringer mics will be balanced and will do a good job for what you need.

If you are planning on giving the mics to young children, I would go for the jack inputs. XLRs will lock into the socket so won't pull free if tugged on, whereas the jacks will, so if the young'uns make a mad dash with the mic still connected, the player shouldn't come tumbling down.

And you mention that your speakers have XLR connectors, they don't make them like that anymore, whatever you do, don't plug your amp or speakers directly into the mic or dvd player, it won't like it and damage something.
And don't use XLR mic cables to plug in your speakers or vice versa !!

 

[twowheelsgood]

Balanced audio doesn't have a common ground with the equipment.

The reason is for ground loops (the buzzing that has already been mentioned) and a thing called common mode noise rejection. Basically electrical noise will occur on both legs of the mic cable. If one side is grounded then the noise will be audiable as one side is ground and the other the mic signal plus noise.

If you use balanced lines then the noise on both legs of the cable is the same and therefore they cancel each other out at the termination (usually a tiny trnasformer)

If you remember of the hifi stands thread I told you this is how the BBC wire up buildings with modest twisted copper pairs of cables without using those stupid exotic things "audiophiles" pay through the nose for and still get superior performance.

It is particularly important for mics, as most give a very tiny signal which can easily be swamped by noise. You can also do things like "phantom power" for active mics on balanced lines.

God I'm such a geek.

 

[Mr Pig]

whatever you do, don't plug your amp or speakers directly into the mic or dvd player

Ehh, ok, I'll bear that in mind! ;0) Also, do not put your microwave oven in the shower. Good tip that, got it on a shower forum.

So, I'd need a balanced mic and a balanced input on the unit?

 

[redjedi]

Sorry if that sounded condescending, but I have seen some very stupid things done by so called "experts".
I once had to repair a mixing console that had been fried by the sound engineer of a big London nightclub. He had cut the end off a power supply (the end that goes into the mixer) and wired on a couple of RCA plugs, then plugged it into an audio input

I just slipped into over cautious salesman mode.

The mic you've chosen will work fine with the DVD player. Just chose either XLR-XLR or an XLR- Stereo Jack cable. Both will give you the same sound quality.

 

[Mr Pig]

Sorry if that sounded condescending, but I have seen some very stupid things done by so called "experts".

Don't worry, I'm just having a laugh, as usual ;0)

I remember years ago a guy on a H-Fi forum bought a pair of Linn Isobariks, the same speakers I have, and went on to rave about how wonderful they were. Much better than the Naim speakers he'd been using. About six-months later someone went round to his house to install a pair of Mana speaker stands and found that the speakers had been wired out of phase since day one! :0) Was made all the funnier by the fact that he was an arrogant twat!

If the player has balanced inputs I'll get balanced cables. They don't cost any extra really so even if they only help a little, why not.

I had thought about the 'yank' factor of jack plugs but I would risk it. Unless you pull a jack plug more or less straight on it won't come out anyway, it'll still pull the machine half way across the room! And I'll just get really long cables ;0)

 

[Ghost Donkey]

And I'll just get really long cables ;0)

Now let's talk radio mics...

 

[Mr Pig]

Now let's talk radio mics...

Don't start, I'm pushing it as it is! ;0)

I want to get a decent player and mics rather than a plastic boom box from Argos but I don't want to go totally daft. She'll be delighted to have 'real' microphones.