more cycle lanes or more 'considerate' motorists?

[dondare]

dondare, have you ever ridden in the Netherlands?

If you have, then you will realise what I mean, and that makes your comments puzzling - why would anyone want to cycle anywhere near cars knowing what the Netherlands is like?

If you haven't, then you won't realise we do NOT have good cycling infrastructure in britain.

We have a few miles of dis-used railway lines, strewn with dog shoot, condoms, and needles.

Other than that we have a Picsso-esque attempt at painting cycle lanes at the side of roads, which provide no cycling at all, but do double as good parking for idle tossers to get their cars a few inches closer to greggs bakery.

I have never cycled in the Netherlands.

In Britain I cycle on the roads and I find them perfectly suitable for the type of riding that I do. I have no objection to sharing them with other road-users, even those who travel in tin boxes, so long as they obey the Law.

There is not room in Britain for another system of roads or paths for use solely by cyclists. Converting old railway lines and allowing cyclists to ride through parks and pedestrianized city-centres is good up to a point. But maintaining a full presence on the real roads is the best option.

 

[BentMikey]

<br />dondare, have you ever ridden in the Netherlands?<br /><br />If you have, then you will realise what I mean, and that makes your comments puzzling - why would anyone want to cycle anywhere near cars knowing what the Netherlands is like?<br /><br />If you haven't, then you won't realise we do <b>NOT</b> have good cycling infrastructure in britain. <br /><br />We have a few miles of dis-used railway lines, strewn with dog shoot, condoms, and needles. <br /><br />Other than that we have a Picsso-esque attempt at painting cycle lanes at the side of roads, which provide no cycling at all, but do double as good parking for idle tossers to get their cars a few inches closer to greggs bakery.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

The Netherlands is cycling heaven in spite of all the cycle lanes, not because of them.

 

[ComedyPilot]

I rode about 800 miles round the Netherlands, and I can hand on heart say, it was the BEST 800 miles I have ever ridden - period.

I felt 100% safe all the time. When on roads vehicles were respectful and safe with their passing, and the segregated cycle paths were a dream. They were well-surfaced, well-signposted, and actually were the quickest (shortest and safest) way A-B for a cycle.

In this country (and I will use my ride to town as an example) direct is 5 miles on a busy A road with no provision of cycle lanes till the last half mile where there is a smattering of shared paths and painted cycle (in the gutter) paths. As a safer alternative, I ride the next shortest route avoiding those hazards (and traffic), and that is 10 miles.

Now I readily do that ride, but a normal person will not do that; they want it to be easy - not made hard by having to go double the distance just to feel safe.

 

[Origamist]

I rode about 800 miles round the Netherlands, and I can hand on heart say, it was the BEST 800 miles I have ever ridden - period.

I felt 100% safe all the time. When on roads vehicles were respectful and safe with their passing, and the segregated cycle paths were a dream. They were well-surfaced, well-signposted, and actually were the quickest (shortest and safest) way A-B for a cycle.

In this country (and I will use my ride to town as an example) direct is 5 miles on a busy A road with no provision of cycle lanes till the last half mile where there is a smattering of shared paths and painted cycle (in the gutter) paths. As a safer alternative, I ride the next shortest route avoiding those hazards (and traffic), and that is 10 miles.

Now I readily do that ride, but a normal person will not do that; they want it to be easy - not made hard by having to go double the distance just to feel safe.

Like you, if I had to choose where I'd rather cycle - the UK or the Netherlands, I'd choose the Netherlands every time. But don't take my word for it - the modal share in the UK is around 2-3% of trips by bike, in the Netherlands it's 28%. That's a huge difference - Dutch people feel safer when riding a bike and are safer when riding a bike, compared to this country.

 

[ComedyPilot]

Population density

Here's a map to show overall we are not as densely populated in the UK as our north western European neighbours - and Holland is very densely populated, but despite that is very safe to cycle in.

IMO we need to adopt and ingrain a European mentality, and get rid of the consumerist USA's 'little' cousin mentality.

 

[Manonabike]

Part of the problem, and the difference between the experience of cycling here and in Denmark/Netherlands etc, comes down to culture.

In the UK, you ride a bike as a kid. When you're 17, you get a moped, then graduate to a car, and then never look back. Why would you ride a bike? That's for kids, or old-fashioned factory workers. Or at least, that's the prevailing attitude.

In much of the rest of northern Europe, there's far less snobbery about cycling or driving. Everyone rides a bike to get into town, because it's fun, cheap and easy. So everyone knows what it's like - and the cyclist you might endanger with your car is probably your neighbour, or your GP. Or maybe your boss. Consequently, people drive much more circumspectly, especially in town.

A car is still a bit of a status symbol for a Dutchman or a Dane, just as much as for a Brit - but he doesn't need to drive it everywhere to bolster his ego. Parking it on his driveway does the job very nicely.

Waiting for a farmer once, on the edge of a Dutch village one morning, I watched two different businessmen, in suits, walk out of their houses, wheel their bikes past their Audis, and pedal off into town.

Having spent 2 weeks in Oslo and Copenhagen recently I can only wish people's attitude toward cycling in this country could change. I was amazed to see in Copenhagen and the same in Oslo that cyclists are allowed to cycle on the pavement, in fact, I did not see one place banning cyclist!!!! Having said that I did not see any cyclist riding in a way that pedestrians could feel afraid of being hurt. That is something, I believe, it's a problem in this country..... every day I see young people and not so young ones, riding dangerously around pedestrians. No wonder some pedestrians hate cyclists and also so many "No go areas" for cyclists. In my view, the Police should arrest these irresponsible riders and also fine them..... hopefully that would go a long way to change people's attitude towards cyclists. Who is to say that many of those pedestrians hating cyclists when in control of a motor vehicle don't give cyclist the same treatment :-)

I was so impressed with cycling in Copenhagen that I took videos to remind me what it's like :-)

 

[jonesy]

Having spent 2 weeks in Oslo and Copenhagen recently I can only wish people's attitude toward cycling in this country could change. I was amazed to see in Copenhagen and the same in Oslo that cyclists are allowed to cycle on the pavement, in fact, I did not see one place banning cyclist!!!! Having said that I did not see any cyclist riding in a way that pedestrians could feel afraid of being hurt. That is something, I believe, it's a problem in this country..... every day I see young people and not so young ones, riding dangerously around pedestrians. No wonder some pedestrians hate cyclists and also so many "No go areas" for cyclists. In my view, the Police should arrest these irresponsible riders and also fine them..... hopefully that would go a long way to change people's attitude towards cyclists. Who is to say that many of those pedestrians hating cyclists when in control of a motor vehicle don't give cyclist the same treatment :-)

I was so impressed with cycling in Copenhagen that I took videos to remind me what it's like :-)

Are you sure you mean 'pavement'? My impression from a visit to Copenhagen was of a very comprehensive network of kerb-segregated cycle paths, very wide and providing excellent continuity through junctions, but also separated from the pavements. They have created their cycle routes by taking space from cars, not from pedestrians. I must admit to have been very impressed as well, even though I am generally sceptical about segregated cycle routes, not least because of the awful experience we have of this in the UK. However, what did strike me was that their streets seemed to be quite a bit wider in the first place. I've been looking hard at main roads into Oxford and London, and I just don't think we've got enough space to do something as comprehensively as the Copenhagen network. Because even if you squeeze cars out, you still need somewhere for buses, delivery vehicles etc.

 

[hackbike 666]

Cyclists are allowed to cycle on the pavement in Japan...and I have done it.

You will see many people cycling in Tokyo on the sidewalk or pavement. In quieter areas this is fine, but it can be rather traumatic during busier times of day - for everyone concerned.

It is not actually legal but it is accepted by the majority so.... it's up to you. If you do happen to have an accident and hurt somebody while they are walking on the pavement, you will be held responsible.




Actually I did find this after looking it up about Japan.If I had have known the rules a bit more I would have been a bit more refrained in doing so.

 

[marinyork]

Are you sure you mean 'pavement'? My impression from a visit to Copenhagen was of a very comprehensive network of kerb-segregated cycle paths, very wide and providing excellent continuity through junctions, but also separated from the pavements. They have created their cycle routes by taking space from cars, not from pedestrians. I must admit to have been very impressed as well, even though I am generally sceptical about segregated cycle routes, not least because of the awful experience we have of this in the UK. However, what did strike me was that their streets seemed to be quite a bit wider in the first place. I've been looking hard at main roads into Oxford and London, and I just don't think we've got enough space to do something as comprehensively as the Copenhagen network. Because even if you squeeze cars out, you still need somewhere for buses, delivery vehicles etc.

Well I've not been to copenhagen so wouldn't know, I'll believe you on that one. I find it odd that you comment on the road widths in London, they are so superwide and spacious to me and sometimes vast pavements (for very heavy pedestrian footfall). Were you thinking of a particular bit of London? That said even side roads in central london seem so wide to me, it's just that huge areas are dedicated to parking or squeezing a second lane in.

As for the other stuff, I've had a few confused conversations with people from other countries who don't get what the hostility to 'cycle lanes' is here because their idea of a 'cycle lane' is so radically different to ours being quite often properly segregated but on the road and not on the pavement and not running for a hundred yards.

 

[zimzum42]

The last thing I want is segregated cycle lanes - every driver will then be justified in telling you to ride in it and get off 'their' bit of road.

So if you want to avoid numpties pootling along the cycle lane, where do you go?

And I don't know how anyone can look at London's streets and think they are nice and wide...
Maybe out in the wilds of Croydon or wherever, places where things got planned and built recently, but I'd challenge you to come to Stoke Newington or somewhere like that and show us how we can easily fit i a segregated cycle lane.

Most of Europe has the convenience of lots of space and some significant redevelopment post-WW2 bombing...

 

[jonesy]

Well I've not been to copenhagen so wouldn't know, I'll believe you on that one. I find it odd that you comment on the road widths in London, they are so superwide and spacious to me and sometimes vast pavements (for very heavy pedestrian footfall). Were you thinking of a particular bit of London? That said even side roads in central london seem so wide to me, it's just that huge areas are dedicated to parking or squeezing a second lane in.

As for the other stuff, I've had a few confused conversations with people from other countries who don't get what the hostility to 'cycle lanes' is here because their idea of a 'cycle lane' is so radically different to ours being quite often properly segregated but on the road and not on the pavement and not running for a hundred yards.

Regarding widths, I'm talking about there being enough space for a very wide pavement, then a cycle path wide enough for cyclists to pass each other comfortably- I'd not seen groups of cyclists riding in such numbers away from central Oxford- then often two vehicle lanes, or a bus lane and traffic lane; with the whole thing repeated on the other side of the road for travel in the other direction. They've certainly had to take out a lot of on-street parking to fit this in, but even if we did that in the UK there wouldn't be as much room left on most of our city streets. It certainly is a very different thing altogether from the rubbishy 'cycle paths' we get in this country, which we'd often be better off without, but I think we need to recogonise the practical difficulties that make it difficult to transfer that experience to our environment.

 

[marinyork]

The last thing I want is segregated cycle lanes - every driver will then be justified in telling you to ride in it and get off 'their' bit of road.

So if you want to avoid numpties pootling along the cycle lane, where do you go?

And I don't know how anyone can look at London's streets and think they are nice and wide...
Maybe out in the wilds of Croydon or wherever, places where things got planned and built recently, but I'd challenge you to come to Stoke Newington or somewhere like that and show us how we can easily fit i a segregated cycle lane.

Most of Europe has the convenience of lots of space and some significant redevelopment post-WW2 bombing...

I'm not particularly arguing for segregated cycle lanes, just point out how utterly weird I regard it when people say things like 'we don't have the space' in London when your roads are so superwide*. One could of course always do with more space. Moreover there's a lot of post-WW2 development here it's just they'd screwed it up with one-way systems and the estates built in the 60s tend to penalise cycling quite heavily with narrow, indirect roads that were designed to encourage walking.

*They are wide on the whole, it's not my fault some planner put a bus lane or tried to squeeze 2nd/3rd lanes in, put shedloads of parking in etc. They are wide. Whether it is worth building segregated facilities and taking off other groups is an entirely different question. The answer is probably no. I do find it very weird you don't have more bus gates in London.

 

[marinyork]

Regarding widths, I'm talking about there being enough space for a very wide pavement, then a cycle path wide enough for cyclists to pass each other comfortably- I'd not seen groups of cyclists riding in such numbers away from central Oxford- then often two vehicle lanes, or a bus lane and traffic lane; with the whole thing repeated on the other side of the road for travel in the other direction. They've certainly had to take out a lot of on-street parking to fit this in, but even if we did that in the UK there wouldn't be as much room left on most of our city streets. It certainly is a very different thing altogether from the rubbishy 'cycle paths' we get in this country, which we'd often be better off without, but I think we need to recogonise the practical difficulties that make it difficult to transfer that experience to our environment.

Ah I see. So 2x2m cycle lane + 4 lanes that is very wide compared to this country. My point was very much that you'd have to take out parking in this country.

That said when you look at the Opencycle map for copenhagen it doesn't exactly light up like a christmas tree for cycle routes, there are far fewer than I'd expect from what people say, just they make sense a great deal of sense and high quality. The other thing I notice is how there is a huge number of cycle routes through parks - something we could do in this country but refuse to. There could be a lot of stuff they've not put on OSM I concede so there may be many more things not on there, I don't really know, just going on on what's on there.

Other interesting thing is I don't believe some of the roads are 'that' wide in Copenhagen. Take Jyllingevej for example, although it has a pavement + segragated cycle path/'lane' the central reservation is much narrower than **some** places in this country where they've refused to put any cycle farcilities in.

Edit: by the way I agree with the highlighted bit, but I think a few special cases exist where we should ask for quality infrastructure like elsewhere and the rest should be concentrated on other things such as crossing rivers, motorways, ring roads, secure parking, training etc.

 

[jonesy]

Ah I see. So 2x2m cycle lane + 4 lanes that is very wide compared to this country. My point was very much that you'd have to take out parking in this country.

That said when you look at the Opencycle map for copenhagen it doesn't exactly light up like a christmas tree for cycle routes, there are far fewer than I'd expect from what people say, just they make sense a great deal of sense and high quality. The other thing I notice is how there is a huge number of cycle routes through parks - something we could do in this country but refuse to. There could be a lot of stuff they've not put on OSM I concede so there may be many more things not on there, I don't really know, just going on on what's on there.

Other interesting thing is I don't believe some of the roads are 'that' wide in Copenhagen. Take Jyllingevej for example, although it has a pavement + segragated cycle path/'lane' the central reservation is much narrower than **some** places in this country where they've refused to put any cycle farcilities in.

I've had a quick look at that map. I dont think it gives a fair reflection, as it appears to show only numbered cycle routes- maybe they are long distance tourist routes?- whereas the cycle lanes that people actually use follow the road network. And that to my mind is the key point- they dont' expect cyclists to take a different route from the rest of the traffic, their road network is the cycle network, you take the most direct route. For example, the hotel I stayed in on my first visit was on Amarger Boulevard, a major road into the city. Yet it had big wide cycle paths all the way along it, at peak commuting times with Oxford numbers of cyclists riding along, in their normal clothes, no helmets etc etc. See:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...68636,12.582554&spn=0.00079,0.002406&t=h&z=19

Yes, I'd agree some of our roads are wide enough, but plenty of very important ones aren't (most roads in Oxford for example) so we can't simply apply what they've done here.

 

[ComedyPilot]

The last thing I want is segregated cycle lanes - every driver will then be justified in telling you to ride in it and get off 'their' bit of road.

So if you want to avoid numpties pootling along the cycle lane, where do you go?

And I don't know how anyone can look at London's streets and think they are nice and wide...
Maybe out in the wilds of Croydon or wherever, places where things got planned and built recently, but I'd challenge you to come to Stoke Newington or somewhere like that and show us how we can easily fit i a segregated cycle lane.

Most of Europe has the convenience of lots of space and some significant redevelopment post-WW2 bombing...

Roadies in a rush use large wide (usually 4m) open stretches of cycle paths in the Netherlands, and if too narrow or congested with numpties (people of a more sedate pace like me) they stick to the road and get NO hassle from vehicle drivers.

Unfortunately, we live in a country of selfish, arrogant, pig-headed, narrow-minded, aggressive miscreants driving vehicles with no thoughts or cares about anyone else than themselves - and a 3500 deaths per year mortality rate on the roads.

It won't just be an infrastructure change to make things better, there's a whole value system to challenge and educate.